Revamp: Koffing -> Weezing

[Cyndadile]

What CAN be revamped:
- Movesets (TMs and levelsets) - For TMs, please post the existing list even if you're making no changes, it makes my job much easier.
- Abilities
- Egg Moves (POST WITH FATHERS, PLEASE)

What CANNOT be revamped:
- Base stats

We're doing Koffing -> Weezing in this topic.
This one is, according to IB, from scratch.

On the bench: I don't know, something that we haven't done yet.

[SilentSentinel]

Levitate should stay on the line as the only ability.

I'm not seeing Koffing/Weezing getting Venom Strike despite being poison; it doesn't really seem like it could do that. On the other hand, Weezing actually does have a surprisingly solid movepool, with moves such as Fire Blast, Thunderbolt, and Shadow Ball all being TMs. Perhaps Umbrage could make its way in as a TM?

Just some preliminary thoughts to consider.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

I'm supporting them not getting venom strike. It's most definately a fang move (or at the very least physical), whereas Koffing/Weezing seems more special-inclined.

[Cyndadile]

Honestly, I think that their movesets should pretty much be the same as firered and leafgreen. I mean, they're well known for the gas attacks and blowing up.
However, Sacrifice might fit in somewhere, since the line does seem to enjoy killing itself.

I think Umbrage would work as a TM, too.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

Sacrifice seems more... selfless than Koffing seems. Compare Al Quieda (sp?) and Jesus. :P

[ImmunityBow]

I think Afterburn makes sense on them, and is woefully underused if I remember correctly. So does Burnout for an interesting alternative playstyle, and Cherry Bomb. Overload could be okay too, considering that if I remember correctly they get a lot of fire and electric moves by TM.

[NyteFyre]

Personally, I've seen koffing as misunderstood. Who's to say it couldn't use sacrifice? Just because it's poisonous doesn't mean it's evil, and totally not selfless.

[Cyndadile]

I could see Afterburn and maybe Burnout, but could you explain your reasoning for Cherry Bomb? I wouldn't have considered it.

[NyteFyre]

It explodes, and it's round, and Cherry Bombs are generally prankster things. Only part that doesn't fit is the move type, and since when has that been an issue?

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

And that it might seed the opponent, indicating a grass-type affinity?

[Cyndadile]

And that it might seed the opponent, indicating a grass-type affinity?

This. I can't really imagine Koffing shooting a bunch of seeds out of its pores and setting down roots to absorb energy from them.

[ImmunityBow]

Why not? You can imagine it shooting a Sludge Bomb right? Shooting a Cherry Bomb is more of a natural extension than Raticate getting Thunderbolt.

[Cyndadile]

Well, I've always just thought Koffing was basically a flying ball of muck in a purple sack. With gas problems. Seeds never really factored into the equation. I think it's resonable for Koffing to be able to use muck and gas attacks. Through its gas situation, I can appreciate its ability to explode; there are plenty of explosive gases, if it has some way to ignite them. If we assume that it does have an ignition source, I can understand an ability to use fire attacks. The gas and ignition would work in much the same way as a regular flamethrower.
On the other hand, Koffing is a vile creature. It's full of all sorts of nasty toxic stuff. I would imaging that makes its body an inhospitable place for any living organism, including a seed.

I'm not going to deny that Thunderbolt seems unnatural on Raticate, but we're not here to talk about The Pokemon Company's choices. Besides, Raticate isn't even in Topaz, so we don't need to debate its moveset (yet). However, we do need to discuss electric moves on Koffing's TM list, which doesn't exactly seem natural to me.

Lets try 140 characters or less:
I think seeds would die inside Koffing, a sludge and gas pokemon, and The Pokemon Company has some issues in their movesets.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

That. Except that most electric attacks can be chalked up to a build-up of static between gases (which would also be an ignition factor).

[SilentSentinel]

Weezing gets Thunderbolt. Just saying. How is that more of an extension than Cherry bomb?

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

Static electric charges building up inside a dense gas cloud vs. an organic substance surviving in said highly toxic gas cloud? Yeah, that's not much of an extension is it? :P

[Cyndadile]

I'd kind of like to hear an argument for why he SHOULD get Cherry Bomb, not why Cherry Bomb isn't as bad as some other things. I mean, right now the argument for it is like "well, the guy's a murderer, so he might as well rob banks, too." I would rather remove both unappealing traits than add another poor trait. If electric attacks are an issue, we can remove them.
I realize that we seem to be outnumbered 3-2, but I would like to at least see an explaination for how Cherry Bomb fits.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

To me,
Koffing and Weezing feel very well thought out. They are balls of dense, toxic gases. Naturally they can use gas-based moves. The fact they are gaseous means that they can build static electricity (which causes thunder (and thunderbolts)). Expanding on their highly volatile nature, it makes sense that they can learn explosion and self-destruct, but also some flame-based moves, using the gases like fuel for a flamethrower.
However, to me at least, that does not indicate "It's a flame move, it'd be able to use it" or thinking along those lines. For example, Overload, just where is this sudden internal charge of electricity coming from? For Koffing or Weezing to build up such an intense charge internally, they'd likely to have exploded once or twice at least. Afterburn I'm unsure of, how exactly would Koffing or Weezing produce time-delayed embers? On the one hand passing volatile gases over embers would cuase them to erupt. On the other hand how does that work independantly of the pokemon, and where would the embers come from anyway?

So yes, please please can we have some thought out reasoning behind this, please?

On a more positive note, I agree on Burnout. The more damage it takes the more likely it is to leak said volatile gases, increasing the attack's power.

Edit: Fireball? Seems a pretty obvious one.

[ImmunityBow]

Okay, a couple of things:

1. I'd rather not have the entire line go entirely unchanged from FR/LG. I mean, this is Topaz. We want to show off Topaz moves and abilities.
2. Pokemon has shown time and time again that physics doesn't work in a traditional way. How Pokemon works is (usually) either in tangible connections that make sense on some level (not necessarily logically) or because of tradition. This is why all Normal-types get massive special movepools, because traditionally, they have.
3. Koffing/Weezing look like they could shoot cherry-sized projectiles from their spouts, and that they could internally even create the mixture of chemicals required to make them explosive. Hence Cherry Bomb. Competitively, it gives the line access to a move type they have never had access to before in a way that makes sense, and would probably be one of the more exciting additions to their moveset.
4. For Afterburn, I'd like to think that after Koffing/Weezing shoots a large amount of corrosive gas onto you, you'd feel a burn afterward.

[Cyndadile]

1. I'd rather not have the entire line go entirely unchanged from FR/LG. I mean, this is Topaz. We want to show off Topaz moves and abilities.
Of course, but we still need to choose a reasonable moveset. You wouldn't give a Mudkip Dive Bomb, would you? (Speaking of Dive Bomb, I wish that we could give Koffing some flying moves. He does levitate, after all. But there aren't a lot of flying TMs that would fit)

2. Pokemon has shown time and time again that physics doesn't work in a traditional way. How Pokemon works is (usually) either in tangible connections that make sense on some level (not necessarily logically) or because of tradition. This is why all Normal-types get massive special movepools, because traditionally, they have.
3. Koffing/Weezing look like they could shoot cherry-sized projectiles from their spouts, and that they could internally even create the mixture of chemicals required to make them explosive. Hence Cherry Bomb. Competitively, it gives the line access to a move type they have never had access to before in a way that makes sense, and would probably be one of the more exciting additions to their moveset.
I guess this is a pretty good explaination. It still doesn't really explain how it creates the actual Cherry/seed pod part, but I suppose it's not impossible. If we're trying to be too realistic, we end up with a bunch of normal cats, dogs, and birds running around biting each other.
Besides, I don't think anyone's really going to give in on the topic, and it's a lot easier just to not use the TM if people don't like it.

[NyteFyre]

One thing I have been thinking about: Who's to say that all pokemon using a move us it in exactly the same way? They may not neccessarily be grass seed pods, but cherry sized pods of a leeching poison, that, upon contact, explode and cover the opponent in a leeching poison.

What I'm trying to say is that you've made very reasonable ways to create fire and explosions and electricity, but you haven't tried ways to explain how something akin to a cherry bomb could be created in a posion gas ball.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

While I agree with your overall arguement, Koffing and Weezing are two Pokemon that do have plausable science behind it, and I'd like to keep it that way. Plus whilst there is plausible reason for it to shoot explosive cheery seeds, the chance of them growing and seeding the opponent seems ill-fitting for a floating ball of toxic gas.

But anyway, it's not like they can't get new moves. Fireball fits, Burnout fits, Afterburn... fits? Solar Flare? It could use the sunlight to superheat the gases, thus producing such an incredible heat.

[ImmunityBow]

Solar Flare seems even more of a stretch actually. How does it use the sunlight? With mostly opaque gas? Does it just try really hard?

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

Meh S.unlight heats gas, superheated volatile gas -> Intense beam of heat.

[ImmunityBow]

That didn't answer the question. What's so special that suddenly sunlight can superheat an opaque gas? Sunlight heats anything, but it wouldn't super heat unless magnified somehow, which doesn't seem under Koffing/Weezing's realm of abilities.

[Cyndadile]

I would agree that Solar Flare shouldn't go on. Besides, there's no Solar Flare TM, and I if anything a move like that should only be available with a TM.

[Cyndadile]

Based on FRLG...
Moves (Koffing/Weezing): Uncchanged
01/01 Poison Gas
01/01 Tackle
09/09 Smog
17/17 Selfdestruct
21/21 Sludge
25/25 Smokescreeen
33/33 Haze
41/44 Explosion
45/51 Destiny Bond
49/58 Memento

TM List (*Weezing only):
06 Toxic
10 Hidden Power
11 Sunny Day
12 Taunt
15 Hyper Beam*
17 Protect
18 Rain Dance
21 Frustration
24 Thunderbolt
25 Thunder
27 Return
30 Shadow Ball
32 Double Team
34 Shock Wave
35 Flamethrower
36 Sludge Bomb
38 Fire Blast
41 Torment
42 Facade
43 Secret Power
44 Rest
45 Attract
46 Thief
62 Cherry Bomb

HM List:
Flash

Egg Moves:
Screech
Psywave
Psybeam
Destiny Bond
Pain Split
Will-o-wisp

Where do these three go? I added Cherry Bomb to TMs, did you guys want it on the moveset somewhere?
Fireball
Burnout
Afterburn

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

I still digress about cherry bomb. Seeds'd just decompose/fall out. Let alone live, gestate and sap health of an enemy.

EDIT: Put it this way: Would you give Koffing Leech Seed? And if not, why not

EDIT 2: Looking at the vanilla moveset, fire and electrical moves aren't learnt naturally, so I'd say TMs (where applicable), Egg Moves (where possible) and Tutor moves (anything else). I can see Afterburn being related to will-o-wisp, so if it can an egg move. Fireball I'd like to see as a tutor in general and Burnout... IDK.

[Cyndadile]

Fireball, Burnout, and Afterburn aren't TMs, so I guess move tutors are the best option. Although if will-o-wisp is an egg move, I guess afterburn might have a father for it somewhere.


EDIT: Put it this way: Would you give Koffing Leech Seed? And if not, why not

Leech Seed doesn't explode!

[ImmunityBow]

Do you have fathers for those Egg Moves? They can be replaced if there are no fathers in Topaz for them. You could also add Burnout as a level 56/64 move because it's pretty epic (though Memento might be a little more epic).

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

Leech Seed doesn't explode!

So because it's an explosive collection of seeds (note each individual seed deosn't explode) that's somehow okay? Despite the fact common sense and twisted pokemon logic both say that it's wrong (seeds decompose, grass type moves on a poison type), where would it get the seeds from? I get it, you want to give it a grass move, but where's your justification? Asides from "it's explosive".

Cherry Bomb is effectively Leech Seed+, in description and effect. Therefore if a pokemon is unable to learn Leech Seed, it shouldn't be using Cherry Bomb.
So far, every pokemon to use leech seed has been (IIRC) at the very least part plant, and had viable means of producing these life-sapping seeds. Koffing ans Weezing have no such justification.

I guess the point I'm making is, Cherry Bomb is essentially comprised of multiple Leech Seeds, packed together with explosives. If it doesn't get leech seed, it doesn't get Cherry Bomb imo.

[Cyndadile]

Options: Grimer, Koffing, Duskull, Jackalant, Misticade, Mirust, Phantasomo, Atlaxa, Cirroft, Staryu (is Water 3 in RSE and FRLG, but listed as indeterminate here)

Screech - None (Used to be Grimer, but we removed it)
Psywave - Phantasomo
Psybeam - None
Destiny Bond - Koffing, Misticade, Mirust, Phantasomo
Pain Split - Atlaxa
Will-o-wisp - Duskull, Jackalant

[ImmunityBow]

Staryu should be Water 3, we never made a decision to change it. I'm pretty sure no indeterminates are breeding moves off of the line either.

Okay so I've done a check of most of the Pokemon for Fireball and Afterburn, I don't think any indeterminates have them. But we HAVE to include Afterburn on Koffing's moveset IMO because it's actually criminally underrepresented. Only Celsinge and Ninetales have it.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

Move tutor? I sounds like a move that would be taught rather than learnt naturally (In general, rather than Koffing-Logic).

EDIT: I'm not sure if Tutors are one-use, but I was thinking for under-represented moves they could be repeatable tutors, with some kind of cost to offest it.

[Blade Flight]

This. I can't really imagine Koffing shooting a bunch of seeds out of its pores and setting down roots to absorb energy from them.

Pardon me, but this sounds disgusting...

...ly awesome. I approve of Cherry Bomb!

[Cyndadile]

Pardon me, but this sounds disgusting...

...ly awesome. I approve of Cherry Bomb!

Remember, you made me do this.
http://cyndadile.webs.com/Really%20Bad%20Art.png
Turns out, I was wrong. I can imagine it.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

Rule #34 :P Well... and Rule #35, except you got the roots in the wrong places ;)

[Blade Flight]

Remember, you made me do this.
http://cyndadile.webs.com/Really%20Bad%20Art.png
Turns out, I was wrong. I can imagine it.

Ut the uck?

that pic makes me itchy

[NyteFyre]

. . . . . . .At this point, I feel we should just drop this issue, and leave it as simply a move-tutor move, a one off, or just leave it all together.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

Well you wanted Cherry Bomb's. That's just what happens when one successfully seeds :P

[Cyndadile]

Could we substitute Afterburn in place of Haze?
I don't really know how to judge appropriate places on movesets. In game, I usually just kepp the most powerful moves and get rid of stat changers or effect inducers.
Except for sleep powder. My butterfree needs sleep powder.

[ImmunityBow]

Stat Changers and Effect Inducers are important. They bring variety and spice to a moveset. I mean how interesting is a Pokemon with Ember, Flamethrower, Fire Blast AND Fireball. Haze especially should stay for flavour reasons. It fits Koffing more than practically anything on its moveset. There's nothing wrong with just juggling the levels around a bit and just adding to the moveset. That's what Gamefreak does from game to game anyhow.

[Cyndadile]

I mean how interesting is a Pokemon with Ember, Flamethrower, Fire Blast AND Fireball.
My Quilava is ember, flame wheel, flamethrower, and lava plume...
Actually, I think I threw rollout in there somewhere. Probably instead of ember.

Would before or after smokescreen work for afterburn?

[ImmunityBow]

After Smokescreen might work, since it's between two support moves.

[Cyndadile]

How's this?
01/01 Poison Gas
01/01 Tackle
09/09 Smog
15/15 Selfdestruct
19/19 Sludge
23/23 Smokescreeen
28/28 Afterburn
34/34 Haze
41/44 Explosion
45/51 Destiny Bond
49/58 Memento

Before:
01/01 Poison Gas
01/01 Tackle
09/09 Smog
17/17 Selfdestruct
21/21 Sludge
25/25 Smokescreeen
33/33 Haze
41/44 Explosion
45/51 Destiny Bond
49/58 Memento

Koffing evolves at level 34.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

01|01
01|01
09|09
13|13
19|19
25|25
29|29
33|34
39|41
45|48
49|53

Allows us to add a few more moves in and maintains the general pattern.

[Cyndadile]

Compare to original:
01|01 - 01/01 Poison Gas
01|01 - 01/01 Tackle
09|09 - 09/09 Smog
13|13 - 17/17 Selfdestruct
19|19 - 21/21 Sludge
25|25 - 25/25 Smokescreeen
29|29 - XX/XX Afterburn
33|34 - 33/33 Haze
39|41 - 41/44 Explosion
45|48 - 45/51 Destiny Bond
49|53 - 49/58 Memento

It seems like you decreased Selfdestruct and sludge for no reason, since smokescreen remains unchanged. Also, Haze needs to be 33/33 or 34/34, since Koffing hasn't evolved yet.
With Haze almost unchanged, I don't see why you decreased levels for Explosion, Destiny Bond, and Memento. It's not just adding an extra move, it's also compressing the level range to 1-53 instead of 1-58.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

01|01
01|01
09|09
13|13
19|19i
25|25
29|29
33|33
39|40
45|47
49|52
53|56


Allows us to add a few more moves in and maintains the general pattern.

Fixed Haze. Anyway, who says we're sticking to FR/LG's moveset? Moveset compression allows new moves in the same range. As for explosion earlier: Due to the higher humidity of the region Koffing/Weezing are more volatile, and thus more prone to explosions and spontaneous ignition. Hence why fire moves can be learnt naturally rather than having to be taught.

[Cyndadile]

I meant that having so many moves accessible earlier might not be the best option. Condensing the moveset gives players access to better moves at an earlier time, making the game less challenging.

Also, can you really think of better moves for Koffing than a bunch of gas and poison moves? I think the moveset was pretty well put together.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

More poison, and a few fire, moves?

[ImmunityBow]

No, I agree. Koffing/Weezing's moveset was practically perfect as far as fitting moves went. There aren't any I want to replace. But it's not an overstuffed moveset so we're still free to just add a couple more.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

01|01
01|01
09|09
13|13
19|19
25|25
29|29
33|33
39|40
45|47
49|52
53|56

Only adds in two moves though. Given Afterburn was wanted that leaves one move. Surely it's not that hard to find a single move that fits Koffing/Weezing? Sludge Bomb, for example, would give it access to a high-powered move late game that isn't self-destructive.


01|01 Poison Gas
01|01 Tackle
09|09 Smog
13|13 Smokescreen
19|19 Selfdestruct
25|25 Sludge
29|29 Afterburn
33|33 Haze
39|40 Momento
45|47 Explosion
49|52 Destiny Bond
53|56 Sludge Bomb
Maybe? I'm unsure about the last 3's order, but I feel it's more balanced (less all offensive then a run of support and more a mixture) and still fitting (asides from afterburn, but even that could be seen as a prequel to Explosion I guess).

[Cyndadile]

I think smokescreen should be moved up, to break up the three damaging moves in a row.

[SilentSentinel]

...Wait. Is Cherry Bomb going on as a TM or not? I don't think there was a concrete determination on the subject.

I personally would support it being added.

[Cyndadile]

I think "yes" was the majority.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

Let's put it this way; the game's out and you don't know Koffing/Weezing's moveset. Would you think to try Cherry Bomb on a Koffing? IDK, it just doesn't mesh to me.

[Cyndadile]

I wouldn't. But I wouldn't try any fire or electric moves, either.

Let's vote. Should Cherry Bomb be added as a TM? (Vote even if you've stated your opinion before.)

I vote yes.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

I vote we move this vote to Topaz general. I also vote no.

[SilentSentinel]

I vote yes.

[Cyndadile]

I vote we move this vote to Topaz general.
Why? All the other revamps are here, it's move-related, and General is filled with enough other random stuff.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

Because the majority of the traffic is in general?

[ImmunityBow]

I'll vote yes. This is in moves/items where it should be, so I think this is the correct place to have it. Especially since it concerns Koffing's revamp so closely.

[NyteFyre]

True, but this vote is specific to not only a move type, but a specific pokemon line's moveset. Makes more sense to hold it in the area with most relevance to the vote subject. It it was a more large-scale voting process, such as with the shinies, I could see it moved to General; but this particular vote is very specific and very small scaled.

I vote that I don't care. I'm indifferent. I don't care one way or the other.

[Cyndadile]

Current tally:
Yes = 3
No = 1
Indifferent = 1
Let's give it 48 hours for more votes before anything is finalized.

Meanwhile, what do other people think about BTG's move listing?
01|01 Poison Gas
01|01 Tackle
09|09 Smog
13|13 Smokescreen
19|19 Selfdestruct
25|25 Sludge
29|29 Afterburn
33|33 Haze
39|40 Momento
45|47 Explosion
49|52 Destiny Bond
53|56 Sludge Bomb

I still think Smokescreen should be moved to a higher level, since something needs to break up selfdestruct-sludge-afterburn.

[NyteFyre]

I feel that giving Self-Destruct that early could break his moveset, same with the other moves. Why don't we see if we can fit a Topaz specific suport move between Self-Destruct, and bumping Self-Destruct down to 17? Otherwise, I fell it's fine.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

I feel that giving Self-Destruct that early could break his moveset [...] and bumping Self-Destruct down to 17?

Much confusion. Unless you're refering to Explosion. In which case I'm all for swapping it with sludge bomb. It's really quite hard to judge suicide moves.

Also, moving Smokescreen higher brings up Tackle-Smog-Selfdestruct.

[NyteFyre]

I meant, we shouldn't move Selfdestruct all the way down to 13, but 17 could possibly work

[Cyndadile]

Any suggestions on what to add? I don't think many Topaz moves fit with Koffing's usual theme.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

I say none. Koffing/Weezing are even more offensive heavy so three- in-a-row is a non issue. Also, adding a move means ether more early moves in middle-game or a tonne of moves at once. Also also, considering selfdestruct is a self-ko, it doesn't really have the same impact as other three-in-a-rows. Seriously, I see nothing wrong with the current moveset suggested.

[PokePoindexter]

I personally like the list in general, but I would swap Memento and Sludge Bomb, personally. I can't picture a Weezing learning to cast a sinister shadow before learning to dispense a massive blob of poison.

[Cyndadile]

01|01 Poison Gas
01|01 Tackle
09|09 Smog
13|13 Smokescreen
19|19 Selfdestruct
25|25 Sludge
29|29 Afterburn
33|33 Haze
39|40 Sludge Bomb
45|47 Explosion
49|52 Destiny Bond
53|56 Momento

Better? Any complaints?

Also, Egg Moves:

Options: Grimer, Koffing, Duskull, Jackalant, Misticade, Mirust, Phantasomo, Atlaxa, Cirroft

Screech - None (Used to be Grimer, but we removed it)
Psywave - Phantasomo
Psybeam - None
Destiny Bond - Koffing, Misticade, Mirust, Phantasomo
Pain Split - Atlaxa
Will-o-wisp - Duskull, Jackalant
Should we just remove the missing moves?

[ImmunityBow]

Wasn't Burnout in contention? 3 death-related moves in a row, but that's not too much of an issue. But yes, remove the moves that can't be learned and let's replace them.

[Cyndadile]

Any replacement suggestions? Also, what do you mean about Burnout?

[ImmunityBow]

Burnout was suggested before and received mostly positive response as a mostly different way to play Weezing. (Endure/Salac/Burnout/Pain Split seems fun). Memento could be moved up and Burnout be placed between it and Destiny Bond.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

Soo...

01|01 Poison Gas
01|01 Tackle
09|09 Smog
13|13 Smokescreen
19|19 Selfdestruct
25|25 Sludge
29|29 Afterburn
33|33 Haze
39|40 Sludge Bomb
45|47 Explosion
49|52 Destiny Bond
53|57 Burnout
59|64 Memento
?

Just incase people didn't notice it's
+4|+5
+4|+5
+6|+7
+6|+7
for the pattern.

[Cyndadile]

I can live with that.

[Cyndadile]

So, how about them egg moves? We're down by two. Should we add a couple fire moves? I'm sure jackalant/phantern can be fathers for several of those.

Psywave - Phantasomo
Destiny Bond - Koffing, Misticade, Mirust, Phantasomo
Pain Split - Atlaxa
Will-o-wisp - Duskull, Jackalant

[ImmunityBow]

Jackalant and Phantern surprisingly don't have any Fire moves that aren't TMs or Will o' Wisp.

Scary Face seems interesting and fitting. What about that?

[Cyndadile]

That seems good. And basically every ghost-type has it, so we shouldn't have trouble finding a father.

[Blade Flight]

Agreed.

[Cyndadile]

I don't know what else we can add. Shadow Ball (Misticade)?

[NyteFyre]

Hmm....Does Koffing get Nasty Plot? Or is that Gen 4? If not, that could maybe be a viable option. I don't know if any fathers could pass it to the line though...

[Cyndadile]

Nasty plot does make sense, but it is gen 4.

[NyteFyre]

It's a really good move, though, I don't see why we couldn't add it, but oh well. Are there any moves similar to it, that are Gen 3 or older?

[ImmunityBow]

There's Mystic Power but that doesn't fit very well I don't think.

[NyteFyre]

Well, the noxious clouds inside Koffing, and the second half of Wheezing are mysteries, but yeah, I don't think it fits...How about Mean Look?

[ImmunityBow]

Defensive Weezing with Toxic and Mean Look could be cool. Do you have a father?

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

I AM your father!
And Duskull says hi too.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

Options: Grimer, Koffing, Duskull, Jackalant, Misticade, Mirust, Phantasomo, Atlaxa, Cirroft, Staryu (is Water 3 in RSE and FRLG, but listed as indeterminate here)

I'm surprised Jackalant isn't under Plant. EDIT: Oh, it's under both.

Also: Acid Armor - Grimer/Muk

EDIT 2: I just realised our pokedex entries don't list type.

[Cyndadile]

Level Moves Koffing/Weezing
01|01 Poison Gas
01|01 Tackle
09|09 Smog
13|13 Smokescreen
19|19 Selfdestruct
25|25 Sludge
29|29 Afterburn
33|33 Haze
39|40 Sludge Bomb
45|47 Explosion
49|52 Destiny Bond
53|57 Burnout
59|64 Memento

Egg Moves
Psywave - Phantasomo
Destiny Bond - Koffing, Misticade, Mirust, Phantasomo
Pain Split - Atlaxa
Will-o-wisp - Duskull, Jackalant
Mean Look - Misdreavus, Duskull
Scary Face - Phantern, Atlaxa

TM List (*Weezing only):
06 Toxic
10 Hidden Power
11 Sunny Day
12 Taunt
15 Hyper Beam*
17 Protect
18 Rain Dance
21 Frustration
24 Thunderbolt
25 Thunder
27 Return
30 Shadow Ball
32 Double Team
34 Shock Wave
35 Flamethrower
36 Sludge Bomb
38 Fire Blast
41 Torment
42 Facade
43 Secret Power
44 Rest
45 Attract
46 Thief
62 Cherry Bomb

Does that look good? We discussed Fireball at one point, are we dropping that? Any TMs to add? Did we confirm or deny Cherry Bomb? If nothing needs changing, we're ready for a write-up.
Speak now or forever hold your peace.

[ImmunityBow]

TM list should include:
53 Focus Sight
55 Endure
61 Umbrage
62 Cherry Bomb
72 Initiative
75 Sleep Talk
78 Substitute
79 Rocket Punch
80 Orion’s Sword

Umbrage is debatable so that can be a point of discussion. I think it fits though. Cherry Bomb is a yes for me, Fireball is not necessary IMO. Otherwise standard utility TMs that go on everyone.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

I suggested fireball as a tutor move, not sure how everyone reacted to that. Actually, where should tutor moves be discussed?

[ImmunityBow]

I guess tutors were one of the things that didn't carry over from the old forums. I'm pretty sure the only ones we had agreed on anyway were the elemental punches and Smellingsalts.

[Cyndadile]

Level Moves Koffing/Weezing
01|01 Poison Gas
01|01 Tackle
09|09 Smog
13|13 Smokescreen
19|19 Selfdestruct
25|25 Sludge
29|29 Afterburn
33|33 Haze
39|40 Sludge Bomb
45|47 Explosion
49|52 Destiny Bond
53|57 Burnout
59|64 Memento

Egg Moves
Psywave - Phantasomo
Destiny Bond - Koffing, Misticade, Mirust, Phantasomo
Pain Split - Atlaxa
Will-o-wisp - Duskull, Jackalant
Mean Look - Misdreavus, Duskull
Scary Face - Phantern, Atlaxa

TM List (*Weezing only):
06 Toxic
10 Hidden Power
11 Sunny Day
12 Taunt
15 Hyper Beam*
17 Protect
18 Rain Dance
21 Frustration
24 Thunderbolt
25 Thunder
27 Return
30 Shadow Ball
32 Double Team
34 Shock Wave
35 Flamethrower
36 Sludge Bomb
38 Fire Blast
41 Torment
42 Facade
43 Secret Power
44 Rest
45 Attract
46 Thief
53 Focus Sight
55 Endure
61 Umbrage
62 Cherry Bomb
72 Initiative
75 Sleep Talk
78 Substitute
79 Rocket Punch
80 Orion’s Sword

Anyone in the mood for a write-up?
We'll discuss tutor moves sometime after the demo, when we know where the tutors will be.

[ImmunityBow]

Can we get it into dex entry format?

[Cyndadile]

#079/#109
Koffing
Poison Gas Pokemon
Evolution: Evolves into Weezing at level 35
Height: 2' 00"
Weight: 2.0 lbs
Ability: Levitate
Egg Group: Indeterminate

Dex Entry: KOFFING absorbs toxic gasses from the air to keep itself inflated. Since it releases these gasses in the same form, KOFFING's effect on the environment is heavily debated.

Base Stats:
HP: 40
Atk: 65
Def: 95
SAtk: 60
SDef: 45
Spd: 35
BST: 340

01 Poison Gas
01 Tackle
09 Smog
13 Smokescreen
19 Selfdestruct
25 Sludge
29 Afterburn
33 Haze
39 Sludge Bomb
45 Explosion
49 Destiny Bond
53 Burnout
59 Memento

TMs:

06 Toxic
10 Hidden Power
11 Sunny Day
12 Taunt
17 Protect
18 Rain Dance
21 Frustration
24 Thunderbolt
25 Thunder
27 Return
30 Shadow Ball
32 Double Team
34 Shock Wave
35 Flamethrower
36 Sludge Bomb
38 Fire Blast
41 Torment
42 Facade
43 Secret Power
44 Rest
45 Attract
46 Thief
53 Focus Sight
55 Endure
61 Umbrage
62 Cherry Bomb
72 Initiative
75 Sleep Talk
78 Substitute
79 Rocket Punch
80 Orion’s Sword

Front and back sprites by Gamefreak

=============================

#080/#110
Weezing
Poison Gas Pokemon
Height: 3' 11"
Weight: 21.0 lbs
Ability: Levitate
Egg Group: Indeterminate

Dex Entry: WEEZING is a fusion of the waste material from two KOFFING. Wounds caused from being struck by its sludge will quickly fester and become infected, requiring urgent medical attention.

Base Stats:
HP: 65
Atk: 90
Def: 120
SAtk: 85
SDef: 70
Spd: 60
BST: 490

01 Poison Gas
01 Tackle
09 Smog
13 Smokescreen
19 Selfdestruct
25 Sludge
29 Afterburn
33 Haze
40 Sludge Bomb
47 Explosion
52 Destiny Bond
57 Burnout
64 Memento

TMs:

06 Toxic
10 Hidden Power
11 Sunny Day
12 Taunt
15 Hyper Beam
17 Protect
18 Rain Dance
21 Frustration
24 Thunderbolt
25 Thunder
27 Return
30 Shadow Ball
32 Double Team
34 Shock Wave
35 Flamethrower
36 Sludge Bomb
38 Fire Blast
41 Torment
42 Facade
43 Secret Power
44 Rest
45 Attract
46 Thief
53 Focus Sight
55 Endure
61 Umbrage
62 Cherry Bomb
72 Initiative
75 Sleep Talk
78 Substitute
79 Rocket Punch
80 Orion’s Sword

Front and back sprites by Gamefreak

============================

Egg Moves:

Psywave
Destiny Bond
Pain Split
Will-o-wisp
Mean Look
Scary Face

=============================

Pokemon.txt also neccessary.

EDIT: Just remembered that I can make the posts myself now. Nifty. Pokemon.txt is still neccessary.