Little Corrections Topic

[ImmunityBow]

Post here to suggest any little corrections, say, a Pokemon has a height of 4'34" (probably my fault) or should have a move or something.

Change/correction log:
1. Embear/Grizlare now have Guts, not Blaze.
2. Subversion removed from Purior
3. Shatter removed from Polara/Polarice, and Crush Claw was removed from Egg Moves to take its place.
4. Earthquake added to Kunaiga's TM list.
5. Enlightenment replaced with Barrier on Blitzfaust.
6. Equill and Tellure's abilities changed from Color Change to Synchronize/Empty Head and Synchronize/Copycat respectively.
7. Mud Slap added to Venap's levelset, Icicle Whip added to Venap's TM list.
8. Vital Spirit added as an alternate ability for Cragoyle.
9. Refresh on Goldrake replaced Swift (moving it from level 20 to 35), and Payday took the now-empty level 20 spot.
10. Old moves have been decided to use D/P mechanics, apart from Flash (50 BP Light Priority) and possibly Outrage (90 BP vs 120 BP).
11. Wing Attack replaced by Sonic Boom on Grific/Gryphonic.
12. Smellingsalt added as a move relearner move on Embear/Grizlare.
13. Replaced Swift with Hyper Voice on Mogel/Firrel.
14. Added "Roar" to Smallard's egg moves
15. Lapras/Sirene's TM lists corrected to stay truer to canon.
16. Shatter replaced with Rolling Kick on Huskii/Tundrolf/Wolfrost.
17. Increased Mallarge's size to 6'5"
18. Replaced Calm Wind with Equilibrium on Cumuloft.
19. Changed Caribrisk from "Tundra Pokemon" to "Caribou Pokemon"
20. Whispaw's evolution method changed from Fire Stone to Level 29. Level-up moves moved down to compensate.

Issues still needed to be discussed:
None currently.

Rejected:
1. Giving Seraph Cloud Nine as an alternate ability, and/or replacing Safeguard on its levelset with Sunny Day.
2. Changing Sing's name to something less generic.

[Zenith]

To kick this off, here are a couple of small ones:
1. Make it so Whispaw becomes Coroona through levelup instead of Fire Stone. For one, we already have three 'Mons that evolve through Fire Stone--Vulpix, Growlithe, and Eevee--another one is a little redundant. More importantly, Whispaw, if I remember right, is first encountered in Coalchar Forest, very early on. If Fire Stones are available in Topaz at the same time they are in the canon games, the player won't be able to get them until very late. Starting around the 30s, Whispaw starts learning fewer moves, and Coroona starts learning exclusive ones. The player might not get the necessary Fire Stone until their Whispaw is in the 40s or higher, missing out on the moves it would've learned as a Coroona to that point, and being forced to go to the Move Relearner to get them...if Topaz even has one. Making Whispaw evolve around Level 25-30 would remedy this.
2. With the new musical moves Topaz has added, Sing's name is pretty generic. Why not change it to something like Lullaby?

[SilentSentinel]

I support 1 for sure. Having 4 fire stone lines is pretty redundant, and makes Coroona unobtainable in the demo unless a fire stone in added somewhere.

I'm not sure we should be messing with canon move names though.

[NyteFyre]

I also would have to agree with Zeniths 1st suggestion. While I may never use Coroona, It would still make sense to have one less Fire Evolution in a game that already has 3. Ironically, they are the original 3 Fire Stone Evolutions. Sing does sound Generic, but it's a canon move. It would pracitcally be murder to change that.

[ImmunityBow]

1. Sure. 4 people for, maybe if one more person agrees then we'll change it.
2. Probably not.

[Reliability]

1. Sure. 4 people for, maybe if one more person agrees then we'll change it.
2. Probably not.
I don't need to type my own post because verythign has already been said.

[neon.Barnacle]

Yes to 1, no to 2.

[Quinn]

I'm not for this.

"Old moves have been decided to use D/P mechanics, apart from Flash (50 BP Light Priority) and possibly Outrage"

I liked how we were gonna differentiate things like BugBite and stuff.

I'm not sure if I have much say, but I for one dislike the idea.

Might sound weird, but a revamped Foldicrane.
Our Dex would become 201, but that might actually be cool. Jirachi's looked at in the same area as Mew, right? Mew's 151...so you get what I mean. *idea generated off of BTG's comment.

I had another, though I cant remember it for the life of me.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

1. Make it so Whispaw becomes Coroona through levelup instead of Fire Stone. For one, we already have three 'Mons that evolve through Fire Stone--Vulpix, Growlithe, and Eevee--another one is a little redundant. More importantly, Whispaw, if I remember right, is first encountered in Coalchar Forest, very early on. If Fire Stones are available in Topaz at the same time they are in the canon games, the player won't be able to get them until very late. Starting around the 30s, Whispaw starts learning fewer moves, and Coroona starts learning exclusive ones. The player might not get the necessary Fire Stone until their Whispaw is in the 40s or higher, missing out on the moves it would've learned as a Coroona to that point, and being forced to go to the Move Relearner to get them...if Topaz even has one. Making Whispaw evolve around Level 25-30 would remedy this.

I'm for this. Another solution, however, would be to have a fire stone findable in Chartree.

[Quinn]

the level up has been updated. Also, if we had a firestone, that could lead to overpowering some.

[neon.Barnacle]

I just took a look at the data in Topaz Pokedex. Who did the moves? They're all sorts of messed up. We'll have to go over them again and fix the formatting at some point.

[ImmunityBow]

I'm pretty sure Ali did them, though I can't be sure. I moved them all down to work with the new evolution, but didn't notice anything strange.

We are going to differentiate Bug Bite and Avalanche. Just things like Leaf Blade and Fly will change.

As for Foldicrane, not until the game is completed at the very least. There are other cool concepts that were cut.

[Quinn]

you mean, we ARE keeping our "topaz" edition of Avalanch and bug bite? YEAHHHHHHHH!!!!!

What is the difference in fly and leaf blade now?

True. I saw some of the old sprites, and although I was laughing my ass off at some (though I still couldn't do even that ;) ), there were some good ideas.

I still can't remember mine. I've thought forever, yet I can't.

[neon.Barnacle]

Alright, let's take a look at the level-up moves for the Echoise line:



Echoise
Tackle ---
Tail Whip ---
Water Gun 7
Supersonic 11
Water Sport 15
Water Pulse 18
Soothe Song 22
Bubblebeam 26
Cascade 29
Whirlpool 33
Serenade 37
Water Wall 42
Dive 46
Hydro Pump 50




Mermeidon
Tackle ---
Tail Whip ---
Water Gun ---
Supersonic ---
Water Sport ---
Water Pulse 16
Soothe Song 23
Bubblebeam 27
Cascade 30
Whirlpool 35
Serenade 39
Water Wall 44
Dive 49
Hydro Pump 52




Dolphure
Tackle ---
Tail Whip ---
Water Gun ---
Supersonic ---
Water Sport ---
Water Pulse ---
Soothe Song ---
Bubblebeam ---
Cascade ---
Light Wave 32
Purify 35
Whirlpool 39
Serenade 44
Water Wall 49
Dive 53
Hydro Pump 58



Notice that Echoise learns Water Pulse at level 18 while Mermeidon learns it at level 16. A Pokemon learning moves before its pre-evo is extremely rare, I think there are only one or two actual Pokemon that do this, and certainly not the starters.

On Dolphure, putting "---" for moves below level 32 is an amateur mistake. Even moves that technically can't be directly learned by the Pokemon must also have assigned levels. What the moveset here says is that all of those --- moves are starting moves, which is not what we want.

I went and looked through other Pokemon entries and found similar mistakes.

[NyteFyre]

On Dolphure, from Soothe Song to Cascade, I think they should be put at the same level as Mermeidon. Water pulse seems fine as a Starting move on Dolphure, but only up to there.

[ImmunityBow]

The amateur being me, of course. I didn't get until a while ago that you had to assign levels even if the learning level was before the evolving level, so I must have eliminated all of them in the cleanup process. Sorry! I'll start fixing them.

As for Water Pulse, it seems like that was a typo. If you look at the level differences, there's a full 7 levels between Water Pulse and Soothe Song there, then 4 levels then 3.

Maybe:
Water Pulse 18
Soothe Song 21
Bubblebeam 25

Would work better?

[NyteFyre]

what about Cascade?

[ImmunityBow]

Everything Cascade and up seems fine. Maybe Hydro Pump up to 55 or 56 on Mermeidon.

[NyteFyre]

So you're saying to leave Cascade as a starting move on Dolphure?

[Zenith]

Wait, wait , wait...why does Mermeidon learn Water Pulse, Bubblebeam, and Cascade, anyway? All three of them have 60-65 Base Power. It's...redundant, for lack of a better term.

Actually, we could probably move Light Wave down into the mid 20s. Kind of a lead in to becoming part Light.

[ImmunityBow]

It does seem strange, doesn't it? Maybe this does deserve some more looking into.

[NyteFyre]

I'd say so. My guess is whoever first made the list was only thinking of putting stab moves in there, and possibly basing it off of something, while not paying attention to the powers, and such.

[ImmunityBow]

Well, to be fair the moveset was made when the only thing we knew about the line were the names, sprites and types. It was probably even one of the ones that was made before its base stats, height and weight were confirmed.

[neon.Barnacle]

So does that mean we're going to reexamine all the movesets? Right now would be a good time to do so, because then we can incorporate some of the ideas in the Suggestions topic.

[Quinn]

It would be tough work and stuff. (hell for the next couple months), but I think it might be a good idea myself. Thats me though.

[NyteFyre]

I'm all for it@ Some of the other movesets could use some examining, and others could use a theme, like Ninetails is based off of the idea of grudge.

[Zenith]

Procrastination's a pain in the ass. Anyway, my take on a possible overhaul on the Echoise line. Any small numbers refer to footnotes at the end of the post, to explain stuff better.

Current Dex Entry (http://www.pokemontopaz.net/forums/showthread.php?57-007-009-Echoise-Mermeidon-Dolphure)

First of all, the base stats. They're pretty good, but the terrible Attack sticks out like a sore thumb. Sure, it's Special-based, but you almost never see 'Mons with five very good stats and one horrible one that isn't Speed, with the exception of the more gimmicky ones. The starters especially aren't like this. An attempt to balance the line a little:

Echoise
HP: 53
Atk: 40
Def: 50
SpA: 57
SpD: 54
Spe: 60
BST: 314(1)

Mermeidon
HP: 68
Atk: 51
Def: 65
SpA: 76
SpD: 70
Spe: 73
BST: 405

Dolphure
HP: 89
Atk: 65
Def: 83
SpA: 103
SpD: 93
Spe: 97
BST: 530(1)

There. The line still has the same feel, but now it isn't as minmaxed (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MinMaxing). And as an added bonus, Tackle won't be borderline useless when a low level Echoise is up against something that resists Water.

On to levelup movesets. Dolphure's stats make it both a great Special sweeper as well as a good tank, but it's only decent as a wall, as its defenses are only above average. We need to get rid of the redundant moves, reduce the amount of support moves (since walling isn't Dolphure's main thing, it should be more of a secondary concern), and spread the different move types around more (too many attacking moves at low levels, too many status & support moves at mid-high levels).

("--" means it starts with it, and can be re-taught by the Move Relearner. "xx" means it can't be learned by this form.)

Moves: (Echoise/Mermeidon/Dolphure)
Tackle --/--/--
Tail Whip --/--/--
Water Gun 7/--/--
Supersonic 11/--/--
Water Sport 14/14/14
Water Pulse 18/18/18
Soothe Song 21/22/22
Cascade 24/xx/xx
Light Wave xx/26/26 (2)
Windwhistle 28/32/32 (3)
Take Down 32/35/xx
Signal Beam xx/xx/36 (4)
Serenade 36/40/42
Purify 39/43/46 (5)
Hydro Pump 43/48/52
Water Wall 48/53/xx
Wrath xx/xx/58 (6)
Tail Glow xx/xx/65

Actually, that turned out better than I was expecting. I even snuck in most of the more defensive moves as lower form exclusives. Originally it was to give them something in place of Light Wave, Signal Beam, etc., but then I ran with it when I realized that it would help people that wanted to breed their original, and make the kid more wall-based. A wall build wouldn't be as good during the game as a sweeper with better type coverage, and keeping your starter in its first form would be counterintuitive so early on. But someone that already beat the main game, or at least is really far, and wanted a Wallphure wouldn't have to worry about keeping it in a weaker form for so long.

I feel like Tail Glow really helps Dolphure out. The move actually makes a lot of sense on the dolphin, and Dolphure can really be a threat against opposing teams when it can effectively boost its base SpA to 206 in one turn.

You may or may not have noticed that Dive isn't in there any more. Yes, it did fit, but there was a problem with it: it's an HM move in Topaz. Gamefreak has always avoided having HM moves learned naturally in the games the moves are actually HMs. The exceptions are Waterfall, which gets the grandfather clause as it's a Goldeen line exclusive and has been since 1st Gen, when it wasn't an HM, and Whirlpool, which wasn't an HM in D/P/Pl when the 4th Gen movesets were created.

So...opinions? Possible edits?

1. I looked at the canon starters' stats on Smogon, and I noticed that in relation to the others, the Grass starters had slightly higher BSTs in their first forms and slightly lower ones in their final forms, the Fire starters were the opposite, and the Water starters were in between them in both forms. Interestingly, every one of them had a BST of 405 in their second forms. Echoise and Dolphure had the stats of a Grass starter, so I edited them a little to be more in line with the Water ones.
2. Light Wave's power is middle of the line, and I felt like Level 32 was a little late to learn it. By moving it down to 26, Mermeidon gets more type coverage at an earlier time, and gives players a taste of what's coming up for it.
3. It seems like all of the starters, at some point, have a move that is learned right away at one evolution. With Light Wave moved down, I needed something there. A move that is basically an upgraded Supersonic seemed to work, even though the line can't really do anything with that lowered Defense. Then I decided to make it available to the lower forms as well.
4. Works with Dolphure, as it can already channel light through its tail; Signal Beam isn't much of a stretch. It helps its type coverage, gives Ludicolo (a possible Dolphure counter) something to worry about, and, more importantly, gives Dolphure a way of supereffectively hitting Dionare, since as of right now, Grass resists Light, making Dionare neutral to it.
5. Moved it up because of how powerful it is. I mean, it's basically a party-wide Esuna.
6. To be honest, I'm unsure about this one. I mean, it helps Dolphure a lot, but it might be too much. If we take it out, move Tail Glow down to 58.

[SilentSentinel]

I think we were planning on having all the starter's BSTs be equal, but I like the moveset changes. Balance stuff and all.

[ImmunityBow]

No BST changes, really, please. I agreed to do moveset changes but only that. We have neither time nor resources nor a really good reason (minimaxed or not, it's not that bad) to revamp every single aspect of every single Pokemon we have. Zenith, I appreciate your advice but you're given an inch and grabbing a mile. That's absolutely final. I don't care if 10 people want to change the BST. I might accept it if something is incredibly glaring (which is really difficult to achieve with stats, may I add) but not something as arbitrary as "minimaxed". We also made a conscious decision to keep all the starters at 525 BST, regardless of previous tradition.

Moveset changes seem fine, no Wrath though. I don't quite see Dolphure using Wrath, and it has plenty of other options (you're not going to fit Surf, Signal Beam, Ice Beam, Wrath and the other plethora of support moves Dolphure has.)

[Zenith]

I understand that you don't want to mess with the stats very much. But I think that in this case, leaving this line's stats as is might not be a good idea. Let me elaborate:
1. As of right now, Dolphure's stats, outside of Attack, are all 85 or higher. We're taking borderline pseudo-legend level here. I can't believe I'm saying this, but Dolphure is looking overpowered right now because its only bad stat is one it's never going to use barring very early on.
2. As you said on the Questions thread, as of right now the player fights both rivals before being able to catch any Pokemon, meaning that they have to use their starter. If I understood you right, Vincent is fought before leaving Neo Bay. Because Echoise's Attack is so low, and its HP and Defense are very close to Venap and Celsinge, people that chose Echoise have to level grind to beat Bradley and are screwed against Vincent because of how much lower Echoise's Attack is.

Good to hear that you like the moveset...you know, besides Wrath, but I wasn't 100% on that anyway.

[ImmunityBow]

Trust me, Dolphure isn't overpowered. It has very few weaknesses but you must realize that Blastoise also has very few weak points (if I remember correctly defenses, HP, Sp. Atk and Atk are all 80+ for Blastoise, with speed being the low point) and is borderline NU right now. Dolphure's 98 base speed is just not enough, its Sp. Atk is nothing too special without Thunderbolt (which it doesn't have), though its defenses are great. If you want to look at a minimaxed starter, why don't you look at Infernape? Broken speed tier, very high attack and sp. atk, uber movepool. Or even Sceptile? 80 Atk, 105 Sp. Atk, 120 Speed, none of its other stats are truly bad.

The trainer also has the advantage of a Potion against Vincent though.

[Zenith]

...But even one potion isn't enough when Venap hits twice as hard as Echoise at Level 5, and has the same Defense.

[Cyndadile]

But it is basically guarenteed that Venap will use leer about half the time.

[NyteFyre]

Possibly. Though the rivals do so in every official game, it could be different for the fangame.

[neon.Barnacle]

I just noticed this. Why is Barkub normal type and Vixun fire type? Shouldn't they be either both normal or both fire, since they're kind of like counterparts?

[ImmunityBow]

Well, they're actually not counterparts, as research would show. The grow at different exp rates and are generally only connected by Fire Stones and type. Base stat wise, I believe Arcanine is far superior in total to Ninetales, though Ninetales may trump it in Special Defense and Speed.

[SilentSentinel]

I think that Barkub oughta be changed to fire though. Imo, pokes with one type shouldn't change their type through evolution.

[Cyndadile]

I think Barkub clings more to "puppy" than to fire. Also, that would make Vixun and Barkub too similar, wouldn't it?

[Zenith]

Okay, just one more thing about the Echoise line. I just want to get the levelup moveset finalized. We can talk about stats again if it becomes important at some point later on.

Just a couple minor and aesthetic changes.
Echoise
-- Tackle
-- Tail Whip
07 Water Gun
11 Supersonic
14 Water Gun
18 Water Pulse
21 Soothe Song
24 Cascade
28 Windwhistle
32 Take Down
36 Serenade
39 Purify
43 Hydro Pump
48 Water Wall

Mermeidon
-- Tackle
-- Tail Whip
-- Water Gun
-- Shine
07 Water Gun
11 Supersonic
14 Water Sport
18 Water Pulse
22 Soothe Song
26 Light Wave
32 Windwhistle
35 Take Down
40 Serenade
43 Purify
48 Hydro Pump
53 Water Wall

Dolphure
-- Tackle
-- Tail Whip
-- Water Gun
-- Shine
07 Water Gun
11 Supersonic
14 Water Sport
18 Water Pulse
22 Soothe Song
26 Light Wave
32 Windwhistle
36 Signal Beam
42 Serenade
46 Purify
52 Hydro Pump
58 Tail Glow


I'm kind of on the fence on Barkub's typing, but I'm leaning more toward Fire. The two lines were originally version counterparts, so it would make sense for the prevos to have similar typing.

[ImmunityBow]

I'm going to bring up the issue of Tail Glow.

It does make some sense flavor-wise, but it might break Dolphure. I'm worried about what Tail Glow + Riptide could do to a metagame, especially with Dolphure's speed and defenses.

And could you please bold all the changes made to the original?

[Zenith]

Wait, Riptide? *looks at Topaz move list* Why do Dragon Gale and Riptide have base power? Phazes aren't supposed to do damage! That's overpowered by itself!

And why would Speed matter with Riptide, anyway? Phazes always go last.

I can't just bold changes to the movelist...I did more than just replace moves...

[ImmunityBow]

I know phazes aren't supposed to do damage. That's why they were given very limited access, kind of like Tale Glow. Speed does matter, considering that Dolphure outspeeds basically every other phazer who would be trying to phaze it out (aside from, say Groudon), and when it's not trying to phaze Speed + Tail Glow can get over the top. Just bold whatever you can, added moves, changed levels. If you want to be extra special say what you took out at the end.

[Zenith]

I think the bigger problem there is how Riptide & Dragon Gale do decent damage in addition to being pretty accurate phazes, not the fact that Tail Glow is also available. We can't really keep every 'Mon that has one of the two from getting anything that boosts Sp. Attack, as that would really limit them. If we dropped the BP to ~30 and lowered the accuracy to 80-85 they would be less overpowered.

Okay, the moveset changes for the Echoise line. Added moves are bold-italicized; moves with their levels shifted have their level numbers bold-italicized. Dropped moves are mentioned after each list.

Echoise
-----------------
-- Tackle
-- Tail Whip
07 Water Gun
11 Supersonic
14 Water Sport (moved from 15) (lol, wrote Water Gun a second time here on my other post)
18 Water Pulse
21 Soothe Song (moved from 22)
24 Cascade (moved from 29)
28 Windwhistle
32 Take Down
36 Serenade (moved from 37)
39 Purify (originally exclusive to Dolphure)
43 Hydro Pump (moved from 50)
48 Water Wall (moved from 42)

Removed:
-Bubblebeam (too similar to Water Pulse and Cascade under normal circumstances)
-Whirlpool (too many Water moves; why trap when you have high Sp. Atk and STAB Surf?)
-Dive (is an HM in game; elaborated on in an earlier post)


Mermeidon
-----------------
-- Tackle
-- Tail Whip
-- Water Gun
-- Shine (added for aesthetic reasons--showing its increasing control over light)
07 Water Gun (moved from --; the canon games do this for moves that aren't form-exclusive)
11 Supersonic (moved from --)
14 Water Sport (moved from --)
18 Water Pulse (moved from 16)
22 Soothe Song (moved from 23)
26 Light Wave (originally exclusive to Dolphure)
32 Windwhistle
35 Take Down
40 Serenade (moved from 39)
43 Purify (originally exclusive to Dolphure)
48 Hydro Pump (moved from 52)
53 Water Wall (moved from 44)

Removed:
-Bubblebeam (see Echoise)
-Cascade (redundant to a lesser extent, replaced by Light Wave on Mermeidon and Dolphure)
-Whirlpool (see Echoise)
-Dive (see Echoise)

Dolphure
-----------------
-- Tackle
-- Tail Whip
-- Water Gun
-- Shine (see Mermeidon)
07 Water Gun (moved from --)
11 Supersonic (also moved from --)
14 Water Sport ( " " --)
18 Water Pulse ( " " --)
22 Soothe Song (...We need a Ditto emote...)
26 Light Wave (moved from 32)
32 Windwhistle
36 Signal Beam
42 Serenade (moved from 44)
46 Purify (moved from 35)
52 Hydro Pump (moved from 58)
58 Tail Glow

Removed:
-Bubblebeam (see Echoise)
-Cascade (see Mermeidon)
-Whirlpool (see Echoise)
-Water Wall (still on Echoise and Mermeidon)
-Dive (see Echoise)

[ImmunityBow]

I think you're taking the concept of "limiting a Pokemon" too hard.

Limiting a Pokemon is GOOD. There are many, many cases where it'd be better to limit a Pokemon and many, many fewer cases where you wouldn't want a Pokemon to be able to access everything in its archetype. Dolphure gets Riptide, unlike the other bulky waters out there, thus, it doesn't get a good boosting move. It's not a bad thing, it's letting one Pokemon not do absolutely everything. There are also very few Pokemon who get Riptide or Dragon Gale, so the number of Pokemon limited is rather low.

Water Wall over Tail Glow, everything else is fine.

[Zenith]

The main reason I put Tail Glow on there was to make Dolphure an effective Special sweeper. I really wanted to take advantage of the high SpA & Spd...all four canon Water starters have below average or worse speed, and I wanted to give Dolphure the option to be a fast sweeper in contrast. Water Wall as the last move on a starter's final form doesn't really have a sense of finality. Furthermore, building a starter's moveset almost completely around support basically dooms them to being pretty bad in game.

If you take out Tail Glow, would Wrath work in its place? Dolphure would be able to take greater advantage of dual STAB even without doubling its SpA, and it would have the option of being a good tank (along the lines of Swampert) instead of always having to run support in PvP.

[ImmunityBow]

Wrath just doesn't make sense. Tail Glow wouldn't make Dolphure an effective special sweeper, it would put it over the top. You've already given it a strong improvement with Signal Beam, but giving Dolphure Tail Glow is basically just building its moveset for the player (Tail Glow, Ice Beam, Surf/Riptide, Signal Beam).

[Zenith]

Not exactly. For one, Riptide is a breeding move, which means most people won't bother getting it until postgame. Even if someone did bother to breed their starter during the game, phazes are basically useless in game (outside of the canon games' Battle Frontier, on a team that's built on residual damage), since you get the chance to switch out when you knock out an opponent's 'mon. Most importantly, you won't be seeing those moves together. Sweeper builds wouldn't be using Riptide...why make them switch, taking damage and not doing much yourself, when you can take most out with Surf or a different move in two turns, and only take one hit anyway? What about 'mons that Dolphure is weak to? Wouldn't it make more sense to switch out, since trying to phaze will make Dolphure take a SE hit anyway? Not even Dolphure's defenses could stop a 2HKO. And wall builds would be using something more along the line of Surf/Riptide/Toxic/Protect.

Tail Glow would improve its sweeping ability (and hey, Swords Dance isn't exactly rare), while Wrath would give it another move option, making Dolphure harder to predict, and taking away sweeping ability for a secondary STAB to help tank with.

I still think the bigger problem here is Riptide/DG actually having decent base power and still being pretty accurate.

[neon.Barnacle]

Going off on a tangent, but seeing as how Riptide and other similar moves are straight upgrades to Roar/Whirlwind, why don't we give it a negative effect? Like, for example, the user must go second the next turn.

[ImmunityBow]

The negative effect is the accuracy decrease, which can be made more severe if necessary.

Zenith, either you talk about ingame, or competitive, not both. Currently I'm talking competitive, where things will be happening oftentimes like this:

OPPONENT switched in MALLARGE
DOLPHURE used TAIL GLOW
DOLPHURE used RIPTIDE
OPPONENT switched in RANDOM POKEMON X
DOLPHURE proceeded to sweep every Pokemon on the team, since the only phazer (Mallarge) was slower and couldn't Roar it out.

Swords Dance isn't rare but there was a very good reason for why Nasty Plot only appeared in hyper-offensive D/P: before D/P generally special moves had BP 95, Physical moves around 80. That's why Earthquake was so overused, besides the awesome Ground typing.

And there are enough mindgames for Dolphure as is. We really, really don't need yet another Gengar. Giving options is an unacceptable reason to be changing a moveset. Dolphure has an EXCELLENT movepool with tons of options that no Water-type has had before. It has the speed and special attack to hurt things with Surf/Ice Beam/Signal Beam when necessary, and tanky stats to use its vast and unique support movepool. There is really no need to improve or worsen Dolphure at all.

[Zenith]

Hm. That is a problem. Barring accuracy hax, you would probably lose a couple 'mons before you took that out.

But the fact that Riptide is overpowered is still the bigger issue here. Riptide/DG have decent base power while still being phazes, and the slightly reduced accuracy isn't enough of a drawback. And doesn't the fact that we're handicapping the Echoise line's movepool (no Sp. Atk booster, no powerful secondary STAB as an alternate option) just because it has Riptide as an egg move say something about how overpowered it is? Are we gonna have to do that with everything that gets Riptide or Dragon Gale?

And something else no one has brought up: the Echoise line also has Agility as an egg move. If Dolphure with Riptide is bad even without Tail Glow, what would happen when not even Ninjask can catch it?


Going off on a tangent, but seeing as how Riptide and other similar moves are straight upgrades to Roar/Whirlwind, why don't we give it a negative effect? Like, for example, the user must go second the next turn.

That's one option. But if the player just uses Riptide again, Dolphure will already go last. We could just de-power it a little: 30 BP, 75% Accuracy?

[ImmunityBow]

You know, there is lots of precedent of moves in Pokemon being strictly better than others. Tail Glow vs. Growth, Haze vs. Defog, Flamethrower vs. Ember. It's not exactly a problem that Riptide is better than Roar/Whirlwind, especially since its general use is defensive to help counteract the offensiveness of the physical/special split and generally higher base powered Topaz moves. It's just when it's paired with strong boosting sweepers that it's a problem. And how many Pokemon had Tail Glow before D/P's Nasty Plot? Two, maybe, yet special sweepers were such a force that Blissey or Snorlax were on every team, and Blissey is so minimaxed towards special sponging it's actually ridiculous. There are plenty of special sweepers who long only had one usable STAB: Zapdos, Sceptile, Gengar (no usable STAB before D/P!), Jolteon, etc. Last time I checked none of those could boost their SAtk either, even after D/P.

Also, Agility isn't nearly as degenerate as Tail Glow. Agility won't help you sweep through teams without a ridiculously high base Atk/SAtk stat (Metagross), and Dolphure's damage isn't that great without it. However, Dolphure's SAtk IS good enough reactively, to help hurt problematic Dragons and such.

[Zenith]

The difference between Riptide/DG and the other phazes isn't like the difference between Flamethrower and Ember. The other phazes are already good in their own right. They aren't intentionally underpowered like Ember is. They're more like if a new Fire move was made that had 130 BP, 100% Accuracy, and no negative effects, or was like Flamethrower, but also always increased the user's Sp. Attack. It may be a stronger counterpart to an existing move, but it's still too overpowered.

Jolteon has Charge Beam, which boosts its Sp. Atk 1 stage half the time. Gengar has Levitate, 130 SpA, 110 Spd, and insane type coverage...so many good things, a lack of a SpA boost doesn't matter. And most importantly, 4th Gen introduced Life Orb and Choice Specs, which can equipped on anything, and won't be in Topaz.

Well, okay, at this point I understand Tail Glow. But what about putting Wrath in instead? Dolphure wouldn't be able to sweep as well, but would be more geared toward tanking, thanks to dual STAB. It would probably end up similar to Swampert, with Protect, Riptide, and two attacking moves, with the difference of having better Speed, but no physical options and no ability to set up entry hazards. And it would be kept from being too strong because it can't effectively cover every base with only four moves (like why Gallade is only BL).

(This is one of those cases where that edited Aurora Beam would really help...)

[ImmunityBow]

I'm perfectly fine reducing Riptide's accuracy to 80%, or damage to 20 BP (Rapid Spin and Knock-Off-style).

Gengar was amazing before 4th gen, for the exact same reasons as Dolphure, really. It had ONE good Sp. Atk move (Thunderbolt, not even STAB) but a great range of support moves. Dolphure, on the other hand, has STAB Surf, Ice Beam, and Signal Beam, which are all great moves in their own right. Bring Dolphure down to 33% and Surf gains an additional STAB, and with Dolphure's speed and defenses it can certainly Petaya sweep (not that this generally is a great strategy but it might be one of the ones that can) or even Salac sweep. Jolteon, too, was amazing before D/P, with one STAB move (Thunderbolt as well) and also a decent support movepool. Charge Beam takes four turns (4!!) on average before it starts to outperform Thunderbolt, damage-wise. But yes, enough about Tail Glow.

Wrath just doesn't click with Dolphure's nature and looks. I really don't see it using Wrath. In any case, I don't think it will use it even if it had it. It would only really want to hit Ghost-types with it, which are relatively few and far between and often get hit nearly as hard by STAB Hydro Pump and harder with Torrent. Dolphure would be far more concerned with running Signal Beam to deal with troublesome Grass and Psychic types. Take, for example, Starmie, (who also has a good support movepool, speed, defenses, and Water-typing), who runs Ice Beam and Thunderbolt, and generally Surf but not Psychic since it already deals with most of what would be covered by Psychic or would still switch out regardless.

[Zenith]

Yeah, something like 20 BP/90% Acc or 25 BP/80% Acc would work. The biggest problem with Riptide and Dragon Gale is that they're too strong for what they do.

Yeah, I can see what you mean about Wrath. But we still need something there for Dolphure. It doesn't really make a lot of sense for something with a more offensive-based moveset to get a support move as its last one. I geared Echoise and Mermeidon's movesets more toward support to begin with, so it fit better with them. Dolphure needs something with more of a sense of finality. Any ideas for something like that?

About Jolteon: Charge Beam sets also have Thunderbolt.

And something I just thought of. Apparently, 5th Gen is changing Growth to increase both Atk and SpA, and Sturdy will work like a Focus Sash. Any plans on incorporating either of these in Topaz?

[ImmunityBow]

Isn't being able to summon a wall of water pretty epic?

The 5th gen changes are interesting. Nothing has boosted both offensive stats before, and Sturdy is pretty bad as is. What does everyone else think?

[NyteFyre]

Main reason I haven't posted in here for a while is I have almost no clue what either of you have been talking about, so I felt really left out. I hear 5th gen is going to make up for the near atrocity that was 4th gen. I like the idea of both Offensive stats being boosted, but what about both defensive stats? Also, I didn't know what Sturdy did before hand, so I don't know...Any chance either of you could teach me? Via Pm of course. Don't want to take up perfectly good space.

Also, personally, I think that each starter line should get it's own unique move, that actually works well for that line, instead of the crap that is Hydro Cannon, Frenzy Plant, etc... which they just to every starter. That way, the final forms could have a good finale move, that won't over kill them too much, yet still work well.

[ImmunityBow]

Cosmic Power does both defensive stats. As well as Stockpile, now. Sturdy prevents one-hit-KO moves like Guillotine, Fissure and Sheer Cold, which was pretty useless competitively.

[NyteFyre]

Oh, ok, thanks. I never understood why they made those moves to begin with.

[totodileman]

probably for the non competetive people, or for pokemon with the abilty that makes everything 100% hit, both you and opponent (cant remember what though. that would be a devestating thing for the non speedy teams.)

[SilentSentinel]

I would support the 5th gen changes to Sturdy and Growth. I don't really think that the final move on a starter set needs to be super powerful though. Things like Torterra end with Leaf Storm, which is powerful but sucks on the pokemon. I'd rather have an actually usable support move than a crappy damage move.

[Zenith]

Meh. It still seems anticlimactic. I guess we can go back to it later if something comes up.

I'm all for the 5th Gen changes, especially the Sturdy one. Aggron would actually be able to take an Earthquake.

Keeping with the starter discussion: As of right now, Kelvoyant doesn't have a levelup moveset listed. Fahramane learns Soul Burn at Level 18. Soul Burn is basically a Fire version of Giga Drain. In 4th Gen, the earliest Giga Drain is learned by anyone is 25 (Roselia), and the average (taken from the strongest form of each line that learns it) is 41.1. tl;dr: Level 18 is too early.

[ImmunityBow]

Whoops, fixed, Kelvoyant's list is up.

[Zenith]

My take on an edit to the Celsinge line's moveset. As IB requested, I won't be adding very many new moves, and I only took a couple away, for reasons I explained. Some will be limited to certain forms.

There'll be comments at the end for explaining stuff.

Celsinge
------------------
-- Scratch
-- Growl
07 Ember
11 Fury Swipes
15 Bite (1)
18 Roar
22 Flame Wheel
26 Will-O-Wisp
30 Slash
34 Soul Burn
37 Flamethrower
42 Slack Off
47 Burnout
52 Fire Blast

Fahramane
------------------
-- Scratch
-- Growl
-- Ember
-- Bite
07 Ember
11 Fury Swipes
14 Bite (1)
19 Roar
23 Flame Wheel
27 Will-O-Wisp
31 Slash
35 Soul Burn
39 Flamethrower
44 Slack Off
50 Burnout
56 Fire Blast

Kelvoyant
------------------
-- Scratch
-- Growl
-- Ember
-- Confusion (2)
07 Ember
11 Fury Swipes
14 Bite
19 Roar
23 Flame Wheel
27 Will-O-Wisp
31 Slash
32 Psybeam (3)
36 Soul Burn
41 Flamethrower
46 Psychic
52 Inferno
59 Mystic Power (4)

(Removed: Rest, Yawn) (5)

1. I switched Bite and Fury Swipes for two reasons. For one, I didn't want to give Celsinge a another 60 BP move (to go with STAB Ember) too early. For two, it made a little more aesthetic sense for the evolution to Fahramane to emphasize a stronger bite.
2. Just an aesthetic change. After all, it makes sense for Kelvoyant and its natural "mind over matter" personality to have a mental-based secondary STAB than a physical attack that isn't STAB.
3. Obligatory move learned right when reaching 3rd form. I felt like Psychic was too overpowered to give out at 32, especially when I hadn't made Flamethrower or Soul Burn available yet.
4. I swear, this isn't supposed to be like my original plan for Dolphure. I needed a balance between offensive and support moves, and between Fire and Psychic ones. It just kind of ended up that way.
5. I didn't want to have to take out moves, but there were just too many to work with. Kelvoyant's learns its final move at Level 68 in the old list, a full ten levels later than the other starters, despite never going more than five levels before learning a new one. I took out Rest because it didn't really fit well, and because it's a TM anyway. Yawn was a little harder...basically, it came down to Yawn and Roar, and Roar fit better. Fortunately, the Ground egg group is ginormous, so there's no way something in that group doesn't have Yawn.

Also, is there any reason why Kelvoyant isn't also in the Humanoid group?

[ImmunityBow]

Yawn is pretty important, considering that it's very, very typical of lions (not that Roar isn't even more so). Moving it to Egg Group is acceptable, I guess, there are Ground Yawners (Eevee, for example).

Yeah, so this seems fine to me, your changes are well explained. I wish we could have kept Yawn and Rest in somehow, since they are really lion-style moves, but I understand that something had to go.

Actually, part of the reason I don't want Tail Glow as a last move on Dolphure is because it would mirror Kelvoyant's Mystic Power too well.

[Zenith]

Okay, I need to know, are we 100% on going with 5th Gen's version of Growth? I'll probably end up doing an edit of the Venap line's moveset some time this week, and how late Growth will be learned will depend on whether we go with the old or new version.

[SilentSentinel]

I support using 5th gens growth mechanic.

[NyteFyre]

agreed, 5th gen mechanic of Growth.

[SilentSentinel]

Now that damaging phaze moves are canon (Dragon Tail, which is actually even more powerful than Dragon Gale and Riptide), I think we should leave ours as they were.

[Zenith]

We don't have Specs or Life Orb to boost the damage from opponents up against Riptide/DG. And Dragon Tail & Overhead Throw are looking pretty overpowered in the first place. Why boost ours back to near their level when Topaz's metagame is less equipped to deal with them?

Another thing I literally just thought of: since they do damage, Taunt won't stop them.

[ImmunityBow]

That's good, hyperspeed taunt leads needed to be taken down a notch anyway.

[Zenith]

It makes me worried about how overly Stall-based it could get, with noticeably fewer offensive options and 'Mons with phazes that aren't Tauntable, and therefore can't be set up on or countered at all. And if their stats are good...well, remember how much I had to limit Dolphure?

[ImmunityBow]

Dolphure was limited by not getting Tail Glow or Wrath. Like 99% of other Pokemon, may I add. That's not really that limiting. I have nothing to worry about Stall dominating, with offensive powerhouses like Kunaiga running amok.

[Zenith]

More possible 5th Gen move changes:
-Giga Drain: 60 BP->75 BP
Since we don't seem to have any Technician users in the C-K Dex, all it would do is make it a little more viable in general.
-Thrash: 80 BP->120 BP
-Petal Dance: 90 BP->120 BP
-Temper: 85 BP->120 BP
A BP boost means these could actually be kind of worth using, despite getting locked in and stuff.

[ImmunityBow]

Giga Drain was already viable, though 75 BP wouldn't hurt.

I'm definitely not sold on bumping Temper to 85, we're actually probably not even going to bump Outrage all the way up to 120 either. 85 does seem low but 120 proved itself ridiculous in 4th gen.

[totodileman]

I think we should do this (http://serebii.net/blackwhite/oldattacks.shtml)

[Zenith]

Well, Outrage is ridiculous because of its incredible neutral coverage. I'd actually be in favor of lowering Outrage's BP to 100 and putting the others at 120.

The whole point of the BP boost is to give people a reason to use them. Why use the old Petal Dance when Seed Bomb/Cherry Bomb is only a little weaker and doesn't have all of the downsides?

[ImmunityBow]

Still, not 120 BP. 100 is fine, but it's been proven that the drawback isn't always as much of a problem as once thought. I didn't say that I wasn't in favour of any changes at all, but a couple of caveats:
1. Not 120 BP, 120 BP should have direct, powerful drawbacks that seriously make you reconsider using it again the next turn, or require some setup. I know we just gave Solar Cell to Solarbeam but having 8 PP, 4 against Pressure, and not working during non Sun/regular weather and taking an item slot all kind of work together to make it happen.
2. Not everything at 100 BP. I don`t care about `fair`, the game is far better when there is variance in power between similar moves of different types.

I`m also not sold on Hi Jump Kick`s power boost

[Zenith]

I'm not that sold on HJK's ginormous boost myself...if it was 100, fine, but...

The thing is, those moves have drawbacks. Once you're locked in, all an opponent has to do is switch in something that resists it. You're stuck either doing negligible damage while your opponent sets up, or switching yourself and risk letting the opponent set up.

Furthermore, some of them need that boost to be viable in the first place. With them so low, there are multiple alternatives that are more worth using. Why use a 90 BP Petal Dance when you can use a 95 BP Floral Storm that doesn't lock you in? Why use a 90 BP Outrage when you have an 80 BP Dragon Claw with no drawbacks? It's especially bad with Temper because it's Physical Fire's only option.

[SilentSentinel]

That comment about Temper is the big one for me. They do have drawbacks by being able to switch to something that resists, but 120 is still pretty damn high. Putting them at 90 makes most of them useless though, especially with Floral storm, return, and dragon claw around.

If I had to make them different, I'd put Outrage and Thrash at 95-100, Petal Dance and Temper at 105-110. Thrash will lose to Return even with 110BP, and Outrage has great neutral coverage. Petal Dance will still have to compete with the TM of Floral Storm for a spot, but Temper is it unless you go down to Fire Punch, and those two moves have lots of types that resist them.

[ImmunityBow]

Fire Punch was more than usable during DPPt, even more so than Flare Blitz in many cases. As I said before, I agree that Temper at 85 is too low, but Fire isn`t exactly doomed if it doesn`t have a 120 BP move to abuse. Factor in that most physical walls are weak to fire, and so you can`t switch in Skarmory or Forretress (and I guess Bronzong) as you could with non-Garchomp Outrage.

[SilentSentinel]

Fire Punch was more than usable for coverage if you weren't fire type, but anything with STAB was using Flare Blitz.

[Blade Flight]

I mentioned this on the previous forums, but I'm just rebringing it up.

Ho-oh's talons are bluish-black. The boots on the Ho-oh Cosplayer's feet are grayish-black. Should we fix that, or is it fine?

[ImmunityBow]

I feel it's fine. It's not really that much of an issue, is it?

[Blade Flight]

Not really, no...I was just wondering...

[ImmunityBow]

Scientists have recently discovered that STRIBRA uses the static to make its legs move faster than should be possible.

Sounds like Stribra should have Overdrive, doesn't it? It only has Run Away right now.

[NyteFyre]

I don't see why not. I personally prefer pokemon to have two abilities, it adds a layer of complexity, and can allow for more creative team set-ups.

[SilentSentinel]

Eh, let's throw it on there then!

[ImmunityBow]

Just found out that Berry Smoothie is too many characters for the game to handle. Change to Berry Blend?

EDIT: More offenders:

Flare Incense
Dairy Incense
Twilight Crest

12 characters max by the way.

Also X Special would have to be changed to X Special Attack with the inclusion of X Special Defense, both of which are too long. X Sp. Attack and X Sp. Def would work though.

[NyteFyre]

Twili Crest - 11 char or Night Crest - also 11 char

Milk incense - 12 char

Fire Incense - 12 char

Juice Blend, or Berry Drink? Otherwise, Berry Blend is fine.

Any moves that offend that rule?

[Tyrannigon64]

I'm fine with Berry Blend.

What about Nox Crest, or Umbra Crest? (9 and 11 char, respectively)

[ImmunityBow]

I checked all the moves, and it's impressive, something like 1/3 to 1/2 the moves are 12 characters, but the only one that might go over is Orion's Sword, which might be 13 characters. But that's okay, it can just be Orion Sword without losing anything.

I thought about Milk and Fire Incense, and I agree that those probably work best (I mean, how many synonyms for Dairy are there?) Umbra Crest is probably better than Nox Crest, since Nox Crest could apply to Poison-types too.

[Silver]

how about Luna Crest? 10 char

Skarmory/Skalloy needs an early steel move,
I suggest Metal Claw.

[ImmunityBow]

Umbra suits the Pokemon themselves better, I think. Abyssus, Harskrow, Cackinge...

[NyteFyre]

Umbra is fine with me.

[Cyndadile]

I agree with Umbra Crest and Berry Blend. I don't especially like Fire and Milk Incense, but there aren't really a lot of options.

[ImmunityBow]

Actually I just thought up a replacement for Flare Incense. What about Char Incense? We'd have to re-sprite the item but I like it.

[Cyndadile]

That sounds good.

[NyteFyre]

seems fine to me, but what color would it have to be then? Charcoal Gray?

[Tyrannigon64]

I just thought of one: Pyro Incense. I like Char better, but I just thought I'd put it out there.

[ImmunityBow]

So, are we clear on:

Berry Smoothie --> Berry Blend
Twilight Crest --> Umbra Crest
Dairy Incense --> Milk Incense
Flare Incense --> Char Incense

I was thinking Char Incense would be black-ish, but to be honest if you're interested you can try anything you like. Even if the design doesn't fit charcoal specifically as long as it makes sense in the context of Vixun and Barkub it should be fine. I do think that the current Flare Incense sprite could use an update anyway.

[Tyrannigon64]

Is this okay?

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg820/scaled.php?server=820&filename=charincense.png&res=medium

[NyteFyre]

That actually looks pretty cool, though I feel the "flame" could be a bit higher up, but that's just me.

[ImmunityBow]

Yes, it's good enough.

[ImmunityBow]

I've talked endlessly about how I really enjoy how at least until most of DPPt "Dark" type moves are less "I hit you with shadows" and more "I do evil/unfair things like beat you up, torment you etc."

As such... Dark Aura?

Anyone agree with me that not only is the name unoriginal (kind of like the move, but I don't think it needs to be changed), it doesn't even correspond clearly in flavour to what it does (+2 Sp Def.) Dark Aura sounds more like an offensive increase etc. As a suggestion I think we could rename it "Deny" or "Ignore" instead, which would also fit in with Amnesia, which does the same thing, but with a darker twist. A new name would have to be just as "can fit any Dark type" as Dark Aura, I think Deny does that.

[NyteFyre]

Reject/ion could be a possible name, Refute could also work. Deny is so simple, that it works, but I feel we could do better.

Possibly we could do CorruptArmor as a spin on Dark Aura. It's still dark, and seems more fitting with what Dark types stand for, while also making sense in terms of what it does.

[ImmunityBow]

It's not as elegant though. I love Dark-type moves because a lot of them do exactly what you'd expect them to do. Beat Up literally sends your whole team to each use their physical stats to hit the enemy. Taunt makes them unable to use non-damaging moves. Pursuit pursues them so they can't switch. What exactly is CorruptArmor? An armor made of corruption? Metal that's rusty? etc.

[NyteFyre]

I was thinking more of an all encompassing aura of corrupting influence that guards against mental and other non-physical moves.

Well, what about Rejection, or Refute? To deny is the same as to reject or refute, plus those at least ARE somewhat elegant.

[ImmunityBow]

Refute implies a counterargument rather than simply complete willful ignorance.

Which could be interesting if the move was, say, 40 base power with a 100% +1 Sp. Def boost... (Sometimes it's so hard to deal with the fact that a lot of important things were decided before I even got here ): )

[Tyrannigon64]

I think Rejection works best.

[ImmunityBow]

Rejection somehow doesn't seem dark enough. What about Scorn?

[Cranky Guy]

How about Belittle, Scoff, Brush Off, Stare, Neglect, Blink, Overlook, Disregard, Forget, Scheme, Laugh or Cackle?

[NyteFyre]

Taken straight from a Thesaurus, I presume, Cranky?

Anyway, I still like Rejection, but perhaps Scorn could work. We'd have to change the move description to fit, of course, but that's fine. And yes IB, it does suck that so many things were decided before we even existed.

[Cranky Guy]

Yup, all of them are from a Thesaurus except for Scheme, Stare, Laugh and Cackle.

I think that Scorn works perfectly fine.

[Blade Flight]

I like Scorn, myself.

Must resist urge to ask to call it Dischord so we can have a My Little Pony reference in Topaz...

[Tyrannigon64]

Yeah, I like Scorn too.

There's no H in Discord.

[Blade Flight]

We see eye-to-eye, don't we?

The original word had an "h".

[Cyndadile]

Sounds good to me.

Why are people typing tangential comments in a smaller font?

[ImmunityBow]

Scoff is also kind of cool. I do like Scorn though.

[Cranky Guy]

I just realized that making a description for Scorn isn't as easy as I thought.

Heaps scorn upon the opponent/enemy/foe, sharply raising SP.DEF.

[NyteFyre]

"The user shows detest for the foe, sharply raises SP. DEF."

[ImmunityBow]

"The user belittles the foe's efforts in battle, sharply raising SP. DEF."

I'm also open to changing the effect if enough people are in favour for that.

[Noog]

@^ Wouldn't that sound more like an enemy stat decreasing move, as it sounds like it's discouraging the enemy, or lowering their morale?

[NyteFyre]

idk, maybe it could do minor damage, like 30-40 BP and increase your SP. DEF. by 1 level instead of 2 whenever you attack?

They take it in their pride, and you seem invincible to mental attacks yourself.

[ImmunityBow]

Here's another proposal:
Change Magma Stone and Plain Stone to Magma Rock and Plain Rock so that they don't get confused for evolution items. On that note "Spungy Herb" to "Sponge Herb" might be best since all herbs use real words.

[Cyndadile]

I'd say yes to both rocks, but I think Spungy sounds better.

[ImmunityBow]

The main problem being that Spungy isn't a word and White, Mental, Magic, Vital and Jagged are.

[Cyndadile]

How about "Spongy" then, if we're suddenly being so conformist? Unlike "Sponge", it's an adjective.

I still like the "u", though.

[ImmunityBow]

Haha in most things we've been trying to conform to Pokemon as a fan extension of the series. Spongy is also fine.