regarding HMs and contests

[zeroality]

Hey, I'm updating the site. Working on the city/town pages and I noticed that the HM03 is given out for winning at a contest hall?

Yeah... could we go ahead and not do that?

I hated freaking contests in RSE and to be forced to participate in one to win one of the HMs is just...

(this thread was created from the posts in the Suggestions thread after the discussion evolved)

[Tyrannigon64]

Hey, I'm updating the site. Working on the city/town pages and I noticed that the HM03 is given out for winning at a contest hall?

Yeah... could we go ahead and not do that?

I hated freaking contests in RSE and to be forced to participate in one to win one of the HMs is just...

Yeah, I'm with you.

[Reliability]

I didn't even know that was ever the plan. But I think we ditched contests a while back. At least I did in my head.

[Irot_Rebod]

I didn't even know that was ever the plan. But I think we ditched contests a while back. At least I did in my head.

I wasn't aware either and I recall ditching the contests. Besides, if Reli did it in his head, then it is the law.

[MeekRhino]

Thank god. I hate contests

[Reliability]

Besides, if Reli did it in his head, then it is the law.
Math would be so screwed up if this were true.

[Merlin]

lol...
yes i'm very certain that it was dropped as the contests, battle frontier and a few other things had all been dropped so that programming the game would be easier...
other than that i was completely unaware that it was still being considered as part of a contest...
besides you never really won anything and just imagine being a noob and getting stuck trying to win a contest just so you can make it past a certain gym so you could beat the game...
never have things that important as items to win in contests or anything similar, getting a master ball from the contest wouldn't be bad but not things like an HM or something else equally as important...

[MeekRhino]

Yeah it's just a bad idea. I think that is why it was dropped!

[STT]

Besides, if Reli did it in his head, then it is the law.


Math would be so screwed up if this were true.

QFT. I always thought of the BF as a silly minigame anyway.

[Cyndadile]

Math would be so screwed up if this were true.

You mean AWESOME!!!

I don't think contests are possible, but if they are, and we have them, we should at least have some sort of cool prize.

[Blade Flight]

What's with all the Contest hate? I rather like them...

[Cyndadile]

I've got nothing against them, but everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

[zeroality]

I wasn't suggesting we remove contests altogether. I don't mind leaving in that feature for players who enjoy it.

But to force players who don't to play them just to get one of the HMs is a terrible, terrible idea.

Moreover, it's the Hyper Contest Hall that gives out the HM03. Which means you have to win at the Normal and Super Contest Halls first. We'd have people ragequitting halfway through playing Topaz, most likely.

Thanks Reliability. Should I update the page to reflect it? I think it was Gallea City, or Enchestra. Should I just remove the sentence about HM03 being given out as prize?

[MeekRhino]

Killl it! Lol. I actually don't mind the contests, and I know lots of people love them (the ones in RSE; not DP--those sucked). It's requiring players to do them that's a bad idea. In other words, exactly what zero just said XD

[ImmunityBow]

I do like contests, but the reservations I have have basically all been said already.

[Reliability]

I think we need to update the city texts anyway, since so much is being changed. I'll make some potential edits to all of them and put them up somewhere for editing and confirmation that they aren't crap.

Leave it for now, and we can edit them as a group once that's done.

[Blade Flight]

I agree with everyone - even if Contests were in Topaz, you should not be FORCED to do them. Though I personally really wish we had them...

[SilentSentinel]

It's not really a question of liking them or not, it's of programming viability.

[Tagal]

yeah i can imagine how contests would be quite hard to program, you would need to come up with a nice algorithm for computing the winner and you would need to change the abilities to add a certain amount of points for each contest type, it would just be a mess. maybe in a patch though

[Merlin]

well i like the contests from RSE not PDP but *if* it is in the game then we would need to figure out how the things are going to work and where each one is going to be...
i understand that programming the contests is hard but i am curious the battle frontier stuff might also be equally as hard but why not add the trainer tower?
if i'm right i know how that thing works, (if not then i'm an idiot for assuming such a thing)...
maybe we should have a poll concerning these things?

[MeekRhino]

I think the most important thing is to get out a functional demo ASAP so we can test balance. Then we can worry about the other things.

[Tyrannigon64]

Also if we were to have contests, we would need to figure out what the new Topaz moves do in the contests.

[Merlin]

yeah that's true...
for that i think we should just start off with suggestions and then do the polls but again only if we do the contests...
so how exactly do we get the hms anyway?
i dont remember if y'all talked about it or not...

[Tyrannigon64]

Hopefully before Gallea, because the gym I designed for Gallea revolves around the three HM's that you are able to use at the time (i.e. Cut, Flash, and Surf)

[Reliability]

As per canon games, you will get them from random people, or find them in random places.
ex. You'll likely get Surf in Gallea from a sailor guy

...some stuff might be more imaginative than that, but I'm sure there'll be a good mix of HMs being gifts and picked up items and anything else.

[Cyndadile]

We should have a really difficult sidequest for fly.

[Reliability]

Perhaps. But probably not super difficult. We don't want anyone to ragequit because they can't get through a side-quest to finish the game.

[Cyndadile]

You don't neeeeeeeed fly...

I'm just saying, its a luxury that you should have to really earn.

[Reliability]

With C/K as big as it is, you kinda do. There are plently of other items that we can make super difficult to get, but I don't think HMs should be one of them.

[Tyrannigon64]

What he's saying is that you could always travel by foot, but that's tedious. You technically can beat any Pokemon game without using Fly.

[SilentSentinel]

Fly should be on the late side, but certainly before the 8th gym. There's going to be a bunch of plot stuff going on around there, and walking on foot to everything would really suck.

[MeekRhino]

I don't know that making Fly obtained in a side-quest is a good idea. Too much variation from the canon standard will cause the player to lose interest, regardless of how good th game is.

[Tyrannigon64]

It's not straying that far from the canon games.

[MeekRhino]

I just don't think it's a good idea. I think i will just tick off players.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

^ Complete BS imo. "ZOMG IT'S NOT JUST 'GO THROU GYMZ, BEAT E4 DO NOTHIN!' I MUST NOT BE INTERESTED!" Is exactly what wouldn't happen.

[Tyrannigon64]

Well if it isn't extremely hard, I don't think it would tick anyone off.

[MeekRhino]

Just, in my experience, if a fangame has a lot of weird differences from canon games I get annoyed.

[Merlin]

yeah i have to agree with that if it's too far it gets a bit annoying...
mostly my question was when we get each of the hms in this game how do we get them and in which order...
(if you don't want to give out how you get them you could post their order)

[Reliability]

Mostly the order will follow the order that the badges allow their use, which you can check in the Gym Leader Discussion topic. I don't know exactly when or where, but logically before you need to use them. For example, you'll get Flash in Mistvale, as you will need it to get through Mt. Mist.

But as I said, it likely won't be anything too complicated, unless people seem to really want it. I am considering the idea of having a Fly side-quest, but not anything that is a drawn-out process. But the need for a final decision on that a long ways away from now, so we have plenty of time to argue back and forth if necessary.

[NyteFyre]

Personally, I want large differences from the Canon. I would like the game to show all the other great things within the pokemon universe besides the canon games. Tis why I like some of the spin-offs better than canon. Secondary character classes, anyone? It would be cool to be a ranger in game, or a professional Breeder, or something. It's kind of boring simply being a trainer the whole time.

[MeekRhino]

Well, huge differences like that make it a unique game, so it seems less like an expansion of the other generations and more like a series on its own. In situations like that, straying from the canon games is necessary. Topaz, however, is generally similar to the canon so straying excessively from what the player wants to see is just going to irritate him/her.

[NyteFyre]

I can see you have a perfectly valid point there, but what i'm saying is that we should expand on what is within the universe, make it different in that it is less static in what you CAN do, and more flexible with what you COULD do. I'm not saying to create like a totally different game to the point that the only similarities are the fact that there are pokemon, and there are trainers.

[MeekRhino]

I think that a sidequest for Fly is certainly possible. Of course, I would have the point (I believe it's the point) ruined by making it a required quest.

[zeroality]

Didn't RBY force you to go through the Safari Zone to win the Surf HM? Ugh, I kept running out of steps too.

And wasn't Fly located in some roundabout route that you had to go to specifically in order to get it?

Also what about having to find the Warden's golden teeth to get Strength?

So there is a precedent in canon games for establishing side-quests to obtain HMs. We don't have to decide right now where or how they are going to be obtained though.

[Cyndadile]

FYI: I moved the 34 posts that delved into a discussion about contests and HMs into its own thread (http://www.pokemontopaz.net/forums/showthread.php?905-regarding-HMs-and-contests) since I figured the discussion was still ongoing and I didn't want to spam up the suggestions thread any further.

Good move.

I thought it was FRLG with surf in the safari zone. Whatever. I do think it is important for development to figure out at least when we get the HMs, if not where and how.

[Tyrannigon64]

FRLG are based off RBY, so if it's in one, it's probably in the other. And I would hope it is before Gallea, because as I said, it is required for the gym I made. I would like to know whether or not it is being used though, so I know whether or not it matters to have Surf before Gallea.

[Reliability]

FRLG are based off RBY, so if it's in one, it's probably in the other. And I would hope it is before Gallea, because as I said, it is required for the gym I made. I would like to know whether or not it is being used though, so I know whether or not it matters to have Surf before Gallea.
As I've said before, Surf will be available before the gym. It has been worked out so that it IS available. So you can stop worrying your head about it. ^.^

[Tyrannigon64]

That's good. Didn't that evolve into the Bella/Jane battle thing?

[Reliability]

Yes. That bit that was discussed in the Gym Leader Discussion topic (or a variation of it) will likely be used.