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Its fun to talk about, anyway. There are different levels of competitive battling. This is where we say what level we think certain pokemon will be placed in. There are six:
Uber
OU-overused
BL-borderline
UU-underused
NU-neverused
NFE-not fully evolved
I think we all agree that Raiger will end up in Uber. Nimbolt will be OU because of its ability.
My rough-ideas list is as follows (not alphabetical yet)
NU:
Cascadet
Jalsida
Ditto
Kondria
Venomoth
Flareon
Yanma
Corsola
Octillery
Scorchion
Arachmare
Misdreavus
Torkoal
Relicanth
Crawdaunt (Following what Smogon says for him)
Stribra
Mallarge
Firrel
UU:
Tsunall
Qwilfish
Dusclops
Clefable
Hypno
Chloreon
Sandslash
Muk
Weezing
Seraph
Reefrain
Primeape
Cumuloft
Brontogon
Tidasale
Benengil
Malduval
Quiisord
Pyreign
Dionare
Grumpig
Grizlare
Ampharos
Bakurge
Ingero
Ohmure
Lanturn
Dolphure
Misticade
Ludicolo
Slowbro
Slowking
Slowpriest
Tropius
Drakodo
Malistril
Phantasomo
Cragoyle
Togetic
Miltank
Vilephist
Blitzfaust
Tangela (Again, Smogon ranked him as this for the 3rd generation, so I went ahead and followed their lead)
Exploud
Phantern
Iglonia
Metusk
BL:
Espeon
Tauros
Arcanine
Polarice
Persian
Wolvine
Wolfrost
Ninetales
Arcanine
Flygon
OU:
Ferrian
Tellure
Kunaiga
Eaglair
Umbreon
Harskrow
Abyssus
Coroona
Destado
Khaphix
Cackinge
Nimbolt
Frostorm
Gypseer
Tagati
Neichia
Starmie
Tellure
Illumbra
Kelvoyant
Zantilidae
Pythang
Vaporeon
Jolteon
Umbreon
Serberine
Sirene
Forretress
Scizor
Uber:
Unicrown
Typhidna
Kuranpu
Jirachi
Kipporok
Arowana
Leoracle
Raiger
Smeargle
NFE would be everything else. Of course, this truly is speculation since I can't remember every single Moveset and Stat total.
I agree with most of that.
Persian could potentially make it to top OU. If you think about his pseudo-200 base Special Attack and 115 base Speed, along with Thunderbolt and Shadow Ball, it's only lucky there's no Choice Specs.
Dolphure also totally shuts down things with Serenade and Magic Coat, as well as great defenses, and could be a possible strong threat.
Smeargle is definitely not Uber, his stats don't allow it, regardless of his infinite movepool. He suffers strongly from 4 moveslot syndrome.
I'm also interested in your choices of Jirachi and Leoracle for Uber. Jirachi's never been an Uber before, and Leoracle suffers some stat disparity as well as a crippling Ground weakness. I'm not too sure about that. Arowana makes a little more sense, though the dragon's movepool leaves a lot to be desired, his stats do allow him to make several Dragon Dances without much harm to himself. Kunaiga might have something to say about that though.
Jirachi will probably make uber because it doesn't have as many legendaries to compete with. Its typing is excellent as well, even without the addition of light type immunity.
But Jirachi is really quickly shut down by Kunaiga then set up upon, same with Destado, and definitely doesn't like Choice Banded Arcanine Tempers either. Imprison/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Mystic Power Copycat Tellure also provides a big threat, immediately synching any Calm Minds, Imprisoning off Thunderbolt and Mystic Powering up for the finish with a strong Thunderbolt.
For some reason I thought Jirachi got Ice Beam. Reefrain could probably stop all of those with enough defensive investment, but I haven't really looked at the base stats. Or swicth in Frostorm.
Bakurge will probably be at least BL since its a good Raiger counter with some special defense investment. It can sweep with 110 attack, or run a rest/sleep talk set. It can run a belly drum-ish set as well.
Yes, that's my one idea barring Raiger from immediate Uberage: Bakurge. The problem is that it really needs heavy Sp. Def investment because Flamethrower still deals a large number.
Persian: Good point, but I'm still partially uncertain because Malistril literally rips him apart with Dragon Claw. Which reminds me, Malistril might also be too strong for UU (I just now noticed that).Quote:
Originally Posted by ImmunityBow
Dolphure: LOL, living proof I forgot to read the full moveset list for him. My mistake.
You're probably also right about Smeargle, but it's just that Smogon rated him as OU, they seemed to underrate a lot of returning Pokemon for the 4th generation, and I can almost see him on an Ubers tier. But yeah, that 4 Move-itis thing is a real annoyance.
Wow, so maybe I'm totally wrong about Jirachi. Maybe not even OU from how everyone's describing him.
I can't quite remember exactly what made me put Leoracle in Ubers, but it must be the STAB Megafriction-Synchronize-Rest combo.
Like I said, this list isn't perfect because I can't remember all the movesets and stats.
Scyther is one of those pokemon that is an NFE that is not an NFE. He'll likely make UU, since he can still do everything he was able to do in advance. Scizor was BL before DP, and will likely stay there because he lack X Scissor and Bullet Punch.
Jirachi will very likely make OU simply due to the fact that it has awesome stats, an awesome ability, and some great uses for them (Wish, Calm Mind, Thunder, Psychic comes to mind), but just has this really glaring ground weakness that's really hard to fix, especially in the event of the physical/special split. It's impossible to cover both physical and special defenses, while keeping enough speed and special attack to sweep.
Flareon's usage could go up a bit as well because it actually has a good physical fire move now, but it's move pool is still pretty limited.
Jirachi loses its usefulness as an OU lead without stealth rock.
EDIT: Never mind what I said here.
v You're right...just now checked Smogon's description for him.
He didn't get Flare Blitz, Arcainine did though. The best one Flareon got was Fire Fang.
I will attempt to redo the list thus far. The names in ( ) are those who might function in a different tier. Ones in Bold are changes I made myself.
NU:
Cascadet
Jalsida
Ditto
Kondria
Venomoth
Flareon
Yanma
Corsola
Octillery
Scorchion
Arachmare
Misdreavus
Torkoal
Relicanth
Crawdaunt
Stribra
Mallarge
Firrel
UU:
Tsunall
Qwilfish
Dusclops
Clefable
Hypno
Chloreon
Sandslash
Muk
Weezing
Seraph
Reefrain
Primeape
Cumuloft
Brontogon
Tidasale
Benengil
Malduval
Quiisord
Pyreign
Dionare
Grumpig
Grizlare
Ampharos
Bakurge
Ingero
Ohmure
Lanturn
Misticade
Ludicolo
Slowbro
Slowking
Slowpriest
Tropius
Drakodo
Phantasomo
Cragoyle
Togetic
Miltank
Vilephist
Blitzfaust
Tangela
Exploud
Phantern
Iglonia
Metusk
Purior
(Flareon)
BL:
Espeon
Tauros
Arcanine
Polarice
Wolfrost
Ninetales
Arcanine
Malistril
Flygon
Kelvoyant
OU:
Ferrian
Tellure
Eaglair
Umbreon
Harskrow
Abyssus
Coroona
Destado
Khaphix
Cackinge
Nimbolt
Frostorm
Gypseer
Tagati
Neichia
Starmie
Tellure
Illumbra
(Kelvoyant)
Zantilidae
Pythang
Vaporeon
Jolteon
Umbreon
Serberine
Sirene
Forretress
Scizor
Persian
Dolphure
Jirachi
Leoracle
Smeargle
Wolvine
Raiger
Ubers:
Unicrown
Typhidna
Kuranpu
Kipporok
Arowana
Kunaiga
Some changes I made myself:
*Moved Kunaiga to Ubers. He literally outruns almost everything there and has some nice type coverage to go with it.
*Moved Malistril to BL. He's way too powerful for UU, but can still get massacred in Standard.
*Moved Wolvine to OU because of the Night Vision ability, making him good for Abyssus-Eclipse teams.
*Moved Kelvoyant down to BL--I overestimated his Speed big time. I did list him on OU as a possible addition, though.
*Also put Purior on the list (he was absent before). I've started him in UU thus far.
I was also an inch away from moving Ninetales to OU, but I just remembered he would need to have Night Vision to pull off the possible moveset I saw for him (Fire Blast, Hypnosis/Will-O-Wisp [or both], and either Umbrage, Fire Bath, or Nightfall itself).
I still think raiger will make ubers. Most light types get crushed by its electric attacks him and bakurge can be dealt with by switching in ferrian or tellure.
It's too bad UU has so many water types. Pyreign might have been good there. Is Aerodynamic really good enough to put Eaglair in OU? Maybe if you could baton pass a swords dance or something.
EDIT: I don't think Gryphonic is on there. I haven't looked at him real close though, so I wouldn't know where to put him.
Actually, Destado's probably the best Bakurge counter--immunities to both his STAB's help immensely.
Wow, I missed quite a fair few number of Pokemon. I'd say Gryphonic would probably be at least BL if not Standard--I believe he outruns everyone else in the Topaz Dex (barring Eaglair), and he can dent some things pretty heavily with Base 95 Attack. Similar story with Eaglair, only he also gets Calm Wind to negate any weather conditions.
The reason UU has a bunch of Water-types is because they almost always get eclipsed by Dolphure, Starmie, and Vaporeon; the one possible exception to this is Reefrain, who is immune to Electric attacks and is much more Physical-based. However, his BST still isn't good enough to break him out of UU (A Floral Storm from Modest Chloreon always lands a OHKO if I calculated the stats correctly).
Is there a program to calculate damage, or would I have to do it manually?
Marriland's website has a Damage Calculator. I did do the calculations manually, though.
Actually, the info about Modest Chloreon also applies for Neutral-nature Chloreon. Just checked the calculator myself.
This isn't for topaz persay, but for the Orange Islands revamps, my versions of Ferrian, Tellure, and Ingero are awesome.