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  1. #161
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    maybe another light. Dragons murder dragons, ghosts murder ghosts, so maybe light goes strong against itself.

    another could be poison. Although Poison would be super effective to it, but all takes from it. It would make people think about if the really wanted to throw out there poison against it.
    DO U LIKE WATER????? then u like 75% of me.

    Water type is the god of all. Johto will always be the best region ever (though topaz's Caldera & Kirant will be 2nd)

  2. #162
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    The dark-psychic-light triangle was a gimmick, but a good one at that. Don't really see the point in changing it to be honest. I do agree with the change for poison, though, and everything else you mentioned.

  3. #163
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    so about my water gym...? We have fire and grass, why dont we just complete that triangle? Especially if we are gonna have more than 6 gyms.
    DO U LIKE WATER????? then u like 75% of me.

    Water type is the god of all. Johto will always be the best region ever (though topaz's Caldera & Kirant will be 2nd)

  4. #164
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    The problem is, we don't need something that dicourages people even further from using Poison. Giving it a weakness to its new type advantage would really hurt it. It's one of the reasons I gave Poison a resistance to Light, and made Psychic neutral.

    Light just doesn't really seem like the kind of thing that would be weak to itself. Besides, we already have two types that are weak to themselves (Ghost & Dragon), and they're rarer than Light seems intended to be.

    If we're going with 12 Gyms, then I'm all for a Water one. On the other hand, there's only ever been one Water-based League opponent, and that was only in Emerald.

    The immunity trifecta just seems like too much. Psychic does nothing to Dark because it only has two other resistances. Dark already has three (four, if Light resists it), and Light will have three (if it's neutral to Psychic and itself). Dark could possibly become underpowered if Light is immune to it, and Psychic would gain more power...not enough to be overpowered again, but enough to make people use Psychic over Poison when they're against Light types, putting Poison by the wayside again. See why I'm a little worried?
    Last edited by Zenith; 07-07-10 at 01:36 AM.

  5. #165
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    true. Maybe light could be weak against itself then, so it discourages light users from going against others. Especially something poison light like Illumbra. It would murder the light type with its poison, but be resistant with its own light.

    WATER!!! want's water. Wants a gym that my Dolphure can swim in and murderass
    DO U LIKE WATER????? then u like 75% of me.

    Water type is the god of all. Johto will always be the best region ever (though topaz's Caldera & Kirant will be 2nd)

  6. #166
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    Light being weak to itself makes absolutely no sense. Here's an easy type for it to be strong to: Bug. Most fangames or rpgs with the light type have it as strong to bug. Remember when you were a kid using a magnifying glass to focus sunlight rays on bugs? Same premise.

    We can't have a gym with the same type as an elite four member, so for the third time, no water gym.

  7. #167
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    light to bug....sad thing is I remember doing that to alot more than bugs

    I thought we were changing the elite 4 a bit, with mandy? Wouldn't that leave water? maybe I missed one, but including that, you would have had that said 2 times.

    my dolphure and tsunall are gonna be burned in the scorching sun....
    DO U LIKE WATER????? then u like 75% of me.

    Water type is the god of all. Johto will always be the best region ever (though topaz's Caldera & Kirant will be 2nd)

  8. #168
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    Since when is Mandy going to be an elite four? This needs to be really thought through WITH IB HERE before we even consider changing anything. Also, I am vehemently against changing the Light/Psychic/Dark trinity, as it then creates an unbalance in the starters typings, which were meant to end up so each one could defeat the others, and still make Bradley a contender despite him having the weaker starter.

  9. #169
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    RP is spot-on with that post. Everything we're discussing right now, including gym changes/additions and type reconfigurations, are major game-changers, and I wouldn't implement them with good conscience without consulting with IB first.

  10. #170
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    I was under the impression that if we replaced Mandy's gym with a Dark one, she would take the E4 spot of whoever the Dark one was. But I agree, we should get IB's take on it.

    I don't want to radically change the trinity. I just don't want them all to be immunities. With my idea, Light still beats Dark, and Psychic still beats Light. I just changed it so that Light only resists Dark (keeping Dark from being underpowered, and why wouldn't Dionare just use a Grass move on Dolphure in the first place?) and Psychic either resists Light or is immune to it (Kelvoyant beats Dionare with Fire attacks, while Dionare beats Kelvoyant with Dark attacks). Whether Psychic would end up resisting Light or being immune to it depends on how it affects Poison's use. The bigger thing to worry about here is the fact that Dionare isn't weak to Light, since Grass resists it.

    Even so, typing alone doesn't make a 'mon bad or good. Just look at Infernape and Empoleon: massively different approaches (Ape's ginormous movepool and mixed attack power vs. Empoleon's 12 resistances and ability to switch in and set up), but both are (usually) sweepers, and both are OU.

    Light>Bug? Maybe. It's really the heat that does the damage when you do that, not the light itself. I mean, they even catch on fire.
    Last edited by Zenith; 07-07-10 at 03:42 AM.

  11. #171
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    We're not replacing Mandy. Period.

    The dark-light-psychic triangle was established with the purpose of making starters more unique, with dual type triangles going in reverse order. It's impossible to balance all the types perfectly, even with immunity to Light, Psychic types still have numerous disadvantages, and Dark type isn't offensively-oriented in the first place.

  12. #172
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    We just need a reason for people to use Poison instead of Psychic against Light. If Poison only resists Light, and Psychic is immune, why would you use Poison against Light when Psychic is so much better for the job. Then Poison would end up unused again. A type we just gave an upgrade to gets screwed over because an already fundamentally better type got a bigger upgrade. See why I'm kind of worried about that?

    The biggest problem with where Mandy is right now is that she's right after Fernando, who she shares two (very common) weaknesses and a resistance with. Grass and Bug are too similar to have gyms for them back to back.

    And Dark isn't just defensive, even if Umbreon is. ...Or maybe Dionare (105 Base Attack), Harskrow (95 Attack, 110 Sp. Attack), Cackinge (125 Atk, 115 Sp. Atk), Malistril (110 Atk, 118 Spd), Serberine (115 Atk, 110 Spd), Abyssus (135 Atk), Tagati (110 Atk, 110 Sp. Atk, but his BST is 580) and Raiger (130 Sp. Atk, but his BST is 600) all didn't get memos.

    (Wow, there aren't enough defensive Darks...we need to change that when we go over movesets after the demo gets out.)

  13. #173
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    You're talking about Poison and Psychic as if they're exchangeable on a Pokemon or something. You're also making the comparison using just a single type (Light) as justification. Steel is a better defensive typing than Rock, but that doesn't stop people from using Tyranitar or Aerodactyl. At this point, any boost to Poison at all will save it from the pile of uselessness it was before. Just because Psychic does the job better doesn't mean Poison isn't viable.

    When I said that Dark isn't offensively oriented, I was talking about its moves. In canon games, the highest base power of a Dark-type move is 80. Instead, a large portion of dark moves are based around statuses and unique effects. Type coverage for dark-type moves isn't exactly sublime, either. Also, we have a move called Black Hole, which is basically a dark-type Explosion. It would be broken if Light wasn't immune to it.

    I stated in a previous post that, if the 12-gym idea is implemented, Fernando would be the first to go. He has the least established character out of the gym leaders. Mandy, at least, is involved in the plot around Hollowlog, and that propels her far beyond Fernando in terms of importance.

  14. #174
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    Hm. I forgot about Black Hole. But to compensate for Light's immunity, Dark sweepers will need ways to improve their type coverage, or every pure Dark will be UU or worse. And we'll need a way to make Ambush viable. With that charge turn, someone can see it coming and switch in a Light type to absorb the hit. Maybe eliminate the charge turn at night/under Nightfall? We might still need another strong-but-accessible Physical Dark move (like what my idea for a 95 BP Aurora Beam would do for Special Light), as not every Dark type has the mouth for Crunch.

    The 12-Gym idea really makes a lot of things more complex. If IB OK's it, maybe we should make a separate thread to dicuss possible Gyms, leaders, lineups, and how it would change the game's flow?

    And another thing kind of bugging me. Caldera seems crammed with a ton of different kinds of terrain: the ashen Chartree Forest, Mt. Mist and its layer of...mist, the swamps around Hollowlog, the floating Dynamo Gardens, a 5-6 square long route in constant darkness (How does Dynamo's shadow stay in one place all the time, anyway? And how does something only three "layers" tall cast a shadow long enough to cover all of Route 232?), the snow-capped Mt. Frost, and the Eye of Sand (crammed in between Mt. Frost and Westlog Swamp, no less). Kirant has...a city built in a cave (Sedcini), and...that's it on the mainland. It just seems like all of the fantastic locales were used on Caldera's half of the map, with a couple underwater, leaving mainland Kirant potentially dull.
    Last edited by Zenith; 07-07-10 at 05:22 AM.

  15. #175
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    As far as the landform question, that probably has something to do with the regions of Japan that Caldera and Kirant are based of off, the Chugoku and Shikoku. Chugoku has many of Japans large cities, such as Hiroshima, which likely inspired locales like Collosus and Dynamo. It also is noted for its east to west mountains, which probably inspired the mountains we have today. Shikoku is much less populated, most of its inhabitants live in the north and west, depending heavily on fishing, which explains cities like Icthyes. It is also known for its farming of fruit, which probably inspired Laysan Town. Shikoku has no volcanoes and is less populated, which seems to explain why there are less varied landscapes.

    I could imagine IB raging if we changed all this without him.

    IB: Whew, back from my trip! Did we getting anything done?
    Us: Yeah, we decided to add 4 more gyms and change the light type.
    IB: ...

    For a couple of your other points, charge moves are pretty much always crappy. Look at shadow force, the highest power ghost move in the game, yet it is always beaten by prediction. That's just how they are. I guess I could see the charge being negated at night or somethign, but then again, its generally a fine move for in game play.

    Keep in mind that we don't really have very many pure darks in this game. Umbreon doesn't require type coverage because of its inherent role as a stall pokemon, while Serberine already has an excellent base speed stat in a world where slow pokes can't out speed you with a scarf and a great attack to match, plus Crunch access. If dark becomes any better, Raiger breaks the game.

  16. #176
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    I agree with Darkness/Night negating the charge on Ambush, ambushes are easier at night. Changing the Light Dark Psychic immunities is just a massive no. In caps. And bold. With Chuck Norris supporting it. Powered by Pikachus. it's there to A) make a triangle and B) allow the starters to be balanced agianst each other at their final stages. Also it means the light type doesn't need changing.

  17. #177
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    alright forgive me for saying this but who's thought that maybe nintendo/pokemon/gamefreak didn't add the light type for just this reason??? I mean it'd solve tons of problems right now by killing it off...
    sadly though it still causes a few but that can all be fixed...

    And another thing Dark is super weak to light no matter how small light can still be seen....
    how far away is the M-44 galaxy agian???(don't qoute me there cause i dont remember its designation)
    Dark = weak to Light
    Light = Immune to Dark
    Light cannot be weak to itself though it could be resistant/immune to itself....
    Grass would be immune, Fire would be immune/resistant, Electric would be resistant, water would be resistant
    Poison = Immune to light as well as not really able to do any sort of damage to light so they cancel each other there...
    Steel = resistant to light (though it could do something to deflect it back at the attacking pokemon to do damage)
    Bug = weak to fire, normal to light---they're like us we can live with light we'd die if the sun was too close
    Ground/Rock = both resistant to light
    sadly light's kinda useless cause a lot of stuff would be resistant to it...
    then again maybe i'm looking at some of this wrong but you get the idea...

    And as to a "ton" of poison pokemon being useless remember they made dual types for a reason...
    Poison by itself may not do too well but when paired with other types it tends to start pwn teams....
    Grimer is one of the OUs i believe and its a pure poison...
    Go thru and look down the chart of weaknesses that poison has by itself and then compare it to the dual type poisons and see what happens
    poison's strong
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  18. #178
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    Allow me to show you a list of the poison types in OU:

    Gengar
    Roserade
    Tentacruel

    That's it. There are no pure poison pokemon in that tier. I think we could easily just make poison beat light and hopefully have that allow for the increased usage of strong poison types like Pythang and Illumbra.

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragingprimeape View Post
    Allow me to show you a list of the poison types in OU:

    Gengar
    Roserade
    Tentacruel

    That's it. There are no pure poison pokemon in that tier. I think we could easily just make poison beat light and hopefully have that allow for the increased usage of strong poison types like Pythang and Illumbra.
    Three in OU, 1 in BL, 4 in UU, and 12 in NU. Poison could definitely use another advantage.

    @Virus: No offense, but we can't give that many types protection from Light. If we use those, Light would have, worst case scenario, resisted by 6 types and nullified by 3. No type has that much that works against it.

    The starters don't have a perfect "reverse triangle", anyway...Dionare isn't weak to Light.

    I was wondering how much it was based off of real life Japan. But we still need to do something to keep Kirant from being boring in comparison to Caldera. Just throwing this out there...could we possibly move the Eye of Sand and Saharan City over there? It would also give us room to expand Mt. Frost, as it's really packed in right now (two routes, two dungeons, and a city in only 5 squares).

  20. #180
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    We could just have 10 gyms...8 new, and the 2 Johtos.

  21. #181
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    I'm for either 10 or 12 personally. Like 10 new or 12 new, along with the 2 Johto.
    DO U LIKE WATER????? then u like 75% of me.

    Water type is the god of all. Johto will always be the best region ever (though topaz's Caldera & Kirant will be 2nd)

  22. #182
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    Just as long as the player doesn't need badges from the two Johto ones. They're part of a different league, after all.

  23. #183
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    yah, there unofficial battles. Even for me, that would be too much (and that takes alot)
    DO U LIKE WATER????? then u like 75% of me.

    Water type is the god of all. Johto will always be the best region ever (though topaz's Caldera & Kirant will be 2nd)

  24. #184
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    Even if we go with just 8 gyms, they'd still have to be completely redone in my opinion. The current gym locations are too unbalanced. This means we'll have to swap gym leaders, as well.

    The reason why I suggested 12 or so gyms is because in a world with 20+cities, just 8 gyms would be too sporadic.

  25. #185
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    I'm with neon with the gyms...I just want the thrill.

    By the way, since there wont be a water gym, how zero's attached to misticade sprite, I'm the same with water. If we mess up his room in the elite 4...I'm gonna start eating people. I want it to look like god just touched it.
    DO U LIKE WATER????? then u like 75% of me.

    Water type is the god of all. Johto will always be the best region ever (though topaz's Caldera & Kirant will be 2nd)

  26. #186
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    Although I wonder if it would be the best idea for the Water E4 member to have Misticade if there's a Ghost one as well.

    ...Wait, Zero as the Water E4? I thought we were gonna make the major contributors Bonus Bosses.

    And since they're gonna be on the higher floors of a man-made tower, we could design the Elite Four rooms to looks like Zelda-esque boss rooms.

  27. #187
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    I think the water E4s name is like Torry or something.

  28. #188
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    When we are at that point, I call making his room.
    *zeneth. What do you mean "zero" as the elite 4 member. WTF?

    This Torry dude better look badass
    DO U LIKE WATER????? then u like 75% of me.

    Water type is the god of all. Johto will always be the best region ever (though topaz's Caldera & Kirant will be 2nd)

  29. #189
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    I don't know anything about the E4, but 12 gyms I like the sound of that.
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  30. #190
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    so, I personally think everyone is for more gyms. I'm also thinking that more are for 12. I'm not sure about that though. I'll restate what RP said though, we still need IB here.
    DO U LIKE WATER????? then u like 75% of me.

    Water type is the god of all. Johto will always be the best region ever (though topaz's Caldera & Kirant will be 2nd)

  31. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn View Post
    What do you mean "zero" as the elite 4 member. WTF?
    Maybe I misunderstood what you meant. A couple pages back someone mentioned something about making major contributors bonus bosses or something, and then you said "If we mess up his room in the E4" kind of like Zero himself was the E4 member instead of Zero just liking Water types so much...which was what you probably meant.

    Anyway, should we make a separate thread to brainstorm for the 12 Gym idea?

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    true for the gym thing.

    I get how you got mixed up.
    A while ago, I said that we should be the last battles BEFORE the elite 4. In victory road. Like Swimmer Quinn would like to battle or Hiker Bob. (not like Hiker Zero, or cyndadile though, like real names)

    A while back, zero said he was attached to the misticade sprite and if we changed it, he would go apeshit on the site (not that we would anyways).

    I feel the same way, but with water in general. If we dont make it look good, I'm gonna be F_ _ _ ing pissed OFF. We are gonna make it look like god touched it.

    Also, what about the map? Is it confirmed? I gotta know before I can continue doing maps on some areas.
    DO U LIKE WATER????? then u like 75% of me.

    Water type is the god of all. Johto will always be the best region ever (though topaz's Caldera & Kirant will be 2nd)

  33. #193
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    That...also needs IB to confirm. Yeah, yeah, I know.

  34. #194
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    man...."IB, you need to log on, wherever you are on your vacation!" "Find hotel wifi, or mcdonalds even" (Not that he could read that) Should I start putting the names of routes and stuff though on it?
    DO U LIKE WATER????? then u like 75% of me.

    Water type is the god of all. Johto will always be the best region ever (though topaz's Caldera & Kirant will be 2nd)

  35. #195
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    Yeah, turned out to be either a bad time for us to get on a roll or a bad time for him to be in Singapore, huh?

    Putting the route numbers on the map would help a lot, even though we'll probably end up changing it even more in a while.

    I just thought of something. So Kirant's real life equivanent is mostly flat farmland? What if we ran with that? Maybe we could open up the routes there more, making them less linear, but still using the cities as choke points. Remember how Hyrule Field is set up in Twilight Princess? Like that, but not as open. A different feel might be the thing we need to keep Kirant's overworld from being boring.

    ...I still think we could possibly move the Eye of Sand over there...since it seems implied that it was made by the totally-not-Ancient-Egyptians when they settled there way in the past in game, which means that we don't need to base it on a real world location.

  36. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn View Post
    man...."IB, you need to log on, wherever you are on your vacation!" "Find hotel wifi, or mcdonalds even" (Not that he could read that) Should I start putting the names of routes and stuff though on it?
    Even I was able to! (It wasn't that hard, really, but still! )

    Suggestion: Move this gym disscussion to a new thread to allow other suggestions not to get swallowed alive.

  37. #197
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    thats 3 people saying this disussion should move. Maybe a mod could create one and move this conversation over?
    DO U LIKE WATER????? then u like 75% of me.

    Water type is the god of all. Johto will always be the best region ever (though topaz's Caldera & Kirant will be 2nd)

  38. #198
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    Damn I should check this more often.

    Uh, I dont think its really needing a new thread. Moving something that really shouldnt even be considered yet doesnt seem like a very good idea to me.

  39. #199
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    true.

    Sorry RP, but I have a quick question...you said there is a water e4 member, right? was he added more recently, or what?

    Battle the first Elite Four member, Carlos, who uses Fighting-type.
    + Battle the second Elite Four member, Sabrina, who uses Psychic-type.
    + Battle the third Elite Four member, Synthia, who uses Dark-type.
    + Battle the last Elite Four member, Balthasar, who uses Dragon-type.
    + Battle the Champion, Vincent, who uses a mix of types.
    If so, who did he replace? (Hopes dark). Or, if he isn't there yet, we could keep this and possibly have water gym? (Hopes even more) whatever way though, this fish, along with his fishy team NEED water.

    I added tags to the map of Neons, with the routes and stuff, though I can't post it right now.
    DO U LIKE WATER????? then u like 75% of me.

    Water type is the god of all. Johto will always be the best region ever (though topaz's Caldera & Kirant will be 2nd)

  40. #200
    aut vincere aut mori
    SilentSentinel's Avatar
    Status: SilentSentinel is offline
    Join Date: Dec 2009
    Location: Earth
    Posts: 940

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    Uh, you know that walkthrough is really old right? That set of e4 people is way outdated. There is definitely a Water e4 member now.

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