Suggestions

[SilentSentinel]

Changed.

If everyone is super worried about Abyssus having attacking problems, we could do what someone said earlier and have Ambush lose it's charge turn during darkness. It makes sense considering that it's easier to sneak up and pounce on someone at night.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

^ I'm for that.

[Zenith]

^^Seconded. But we'd need to reduce Ambush's BP to 100-120, to put it on par with Solarbeam, etc.

Well, Abyssus' unofficial dex thread states that it evolves like Zenith said, Happiness at night. That needs to be changed.

That's what confused me.

Now that I think about it, Doom Scythe gives Abyssus a way of hitting the Light types that are immune to Ambush. But it only curses 10% of the time, and the curse can be switched out of. And Abyssus still needs a way of hitting Steel types.

And, just to make a suggestion, I believe we shoudl take Torent, Overgrow, and Blaze off of the Starters, and replace it with something they could actually use. While the 3 are mainstays in the games series, I have to ask you this: How often do you actually make use of them? 2, maybe 3 times throughout the entire game? They do nothing in the overworld, don't do much for competitive teams, and are sort of never used...Since this is a fan game, why stick to tradition with Abilities? We aren't doing this for other parts, so why on this?

I would definitely be for this, as long as the replacement abilities are good. Those abilities always were kind of generic, and out of all of the starters so far, Empoleon is the only one that can really use any of them.

[SilentSentinel]

Actually, Blaziken and Feraligatr make use of their abilities quite well in competitive play, especially when Blaziken runs a Reversal set. I'm not super in favor of changing them, but if you guys can think of something cool then I'd consider it.

[NyteFyre]

That was then. I was thinking we could change them so that they can maybe have 2 abilities, like Kelvoyant can get like Flash Fire, and I dunno, Synchronize or something. Dolphure could get Water Veil, and Aura Absorb/whatever the Topaz version of that is. Dionare could get....Pressure is too often used, and Super Luck won't work....Umm....Maybe...Effect Spore, and...Umm....Eclipse Veil? I think that's an ability.

/goes to check

Edit: Yeah, gonna change those to Night Vision, and maybe Intimidate. Dionare is pretty intimidating, wouldn't you say?

[ImmunityBow]

You mean on the site? Because the forum topic says otherwise.

[NyteFyre]

Ehh, that's probably because RP just changed it not too long ago. He said so on the first post of this page. :\

[Zenith]

Wait, Water Veil on Dolphure is useless. Why would anyone want to burn something so Special-based?

[NyteFyre]

Well...Maybe...Swift Swim?

[Quinn]

Possibiltiy: Changes DEFINETLY WELCOME

Froy
Type: Fire
Location: Cranewing City

Therma
Type: Flying
Location: Softwind City

Fernando
Type: Grass
Location: Roothaven/Hollowlog City

Name:
Type: Psychic
Location: Laysan Town

Name:
Type: Water ()/Ground
Location: Gallea City

Name: Layla (Yes, I really like Zeneth’s, “Dark isn’t evil” thingy)
Type: Dark
Cetacea City

Name:
Type: Rock
Sedcini City

Name:
Type:
Collossus City

Gerald
Type: Electric
Location: Dynamo Gardens

Christina
Type: Ice
Location: Frost Town

Hanzo(?)
Type: Ghost(?)
Mistvale City

Osiro
Type: Ground
Location: Saharan City






E4
Name: Bob (Jk)
Type: Poison/Normal (yes...I did say normal. Its way underused)

Mandy
Type: Bug

Torry
Type: Water

Tristian
Type Light

Vincent (Champion)
Type: Mix

Johto Gyms

Jasmine
*the muscle dude. Cant remember :P Wife thinks he chubby. Cianwood.

------------------
I'm completely with Zeneth on a possible Rehaul. Maybe add some more moves (saw come cool ones, like the never forgetting, acid rain *wasn't it physical poison we needed though?, along with Volcronic *name change, and Fault line) Of course, after this "demo" is released. (whenever that will be...) A complete REHAUL. Sounds scary...but might be an idea.

Still like Bug >Light idea.

light to bug....sad thing is I remember doing that to alot more than bugs

Like Ambush idea.

Neon Map = wants confirmation or denial...but likes confirmation better.

Still love cheats idea(most after e4, but maybe a shiny one for "creators" and people here ) (since its mine and MLE's) though, they shouldn't be too hard to get. Unknown or braile, or maybe our own thingy? Not like that Base64. I have no idea what the hell that even is.

Some underwater change still.

that was just a Prototype. Maybe HGSS water look on the underwater. (Go to your local swimming pool...dive to the bottom, and tell me what you see?)

Like idea for abilties, though not for 2 together. One OR the other is different.

If we choose to keep with one...I think...
(basing off of nyte)
K: Flash Fire
Di: Intimidate/ Eclipse
Do: Light Absorb

[Reliability]

The ocean and a swimming pool are fundamentally different. A pool is clean, not very deep and with a white bottom, which allows the water to pass through the water and reflect the wave pattern. The ocean is much deeper, darker and dirtier, so the same rule wouldn't really apply. It does look different from anything else I've seen, but it just wouldn't be possible.

The gym leaders look fine, but if we need to cut some to make 8, there are some that can be lost.
Chuck is the name you're looking for.
I don't want to mess with the traditional starter abilities. IIRC, the stats of the starters are pretty high, which makes up for the difficulty of activating their abilities.

Could we use Chuck and Jasmine for part of the "half-leauge" if that's what we decide?

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

along with Volcronic *name change

Whaat?

Like Ambush idea.

I support it to.

Still love cheats idea(most after e4, but maybe a shiny one for "creators" and people here ) (since its mine and MLE's)

I resent that!


Also, if we'd kept Foldicrane it'd been the perfect excuse to make cranewing a normal type gym :P. Hell, do it anyway and have the theme be origami.

[Zenith]

Could we use Chuck and Jasmine for part of the "half-leauge" if that's what we decide?

They're already part of the Johto League. Why would they be in a different one as well?

[ImmunityBow]

Okay, some of this discussion needs some conclusion:

Starters aren't getting any other ability. Their abilities are fine, they're useful once in a while and there's no _actual_ reason to change them. I don't think anyone particularly hates having a powerful boost at 33% HP. That's final.

Please don't mess around with the E4, they went through an extremely arduous selection process, one that I don't want to revisit. Gym Leaders, maybe, E4, absolutely not.

Bug>Light is really iffy for me, considering that many bugs are nocturnal and others attracted to light (which often leads to their doom). Light-type is underpowered, we don't need to shaft them any more. Bug does have uses: it has two excellent resists (Ground, Fighting) and some decent type coverage (Psychic, Dark, Grass) which is difficult to find elsewhere. It's only when it's paired with Flying, which only compounds a strengths it already has (Immune to Ground, 4x Fighting) yet exacerbates all of its flaws (Ice, Electric, Fire, Rock) that the typing sucks.

Ambush, I'm fine with making stronger, it's relatively useless as is, it's true. As for Abyssus needing a way to hit Steel-types, it hits Forretress for lethal damage with 90 base Sp. Atk Flamethrower, it doesn't really need another way. It would probably still use Flamethrower even if it did have a strong Fire-attack option.

To make the whole gym leader thing a little simpler, I'm going to go ahead and say we'll make a 4 badge league for Kirant until further discussion proves that this is a bad idea. Normal, Bug, Rock and another type (Dragon or Ice are free) might be good places to start.

[neon.Barnacle]

How many times do I have to say it? There are five gyms within the first seven cities. I don't care how many gyms we decide on, or if we create a separate Kirant league, but the cluster**** of gyms at the beginning of the game NEEDS to be fixed. I've already brought up this point numerous times, but perhaps I simply wasn't loud enough since nobody bothered to give any counterarguments. I can only hope that I can elicit some responses this time.

If - and that's a big if - we were to change the starter abilities, we should make them completely unique. I simply won't support getting rid of the trademark starter abilities for some whored-out ones like Blaze or Intimidate.

IB is right on the Bug>Light thing, Light as a whole is worse off than Bug, especially with the absence of Stealth Rock.

[NyteFyre]

I never really liked the idea of Bug beating light, and light is already pretty shafted as it is.

Blaze is a starter Ability, Neon. :| Also, I never really like the starter ones. I'm with you for making them completely unique, though I'm not creative enough to actually come up with said ability.

I Agree, We need to Move and/or change at least a few of those first 5. I just don't know enough about the Route layout to say much else, I'm afraid. :\

[SilentSentinel]

I wasn't arguing for Bug>Light, I was arguing for Poison>Light for the record. The metagame needs to be balanced if we are going to add a new type.

[Zenith]

And I suggested moving Mandy to the Elite Four. That way, she could show up in the plot, and end up being more than just some random NPC. If Baro got anything right with Quartz, it was having the player run into the E4 before knowing they were E4 members.

Giving Layla a gym just happened to really go with my idea for a Dark gym, especially if the name really does mean "night".

Agreeing with having Poison beat Light. Poison's even more underpowered that Light is right now. Of course, we need to balance Light out somehow...not sure what to have it beat, but we could take away Steel's resistance to it...

[ImmunityBow]

Poison received the item Corrosive Acid, which makes it normally effective against Steel. Poison is extremely underpowered as an attacking type, and only as a defensive type because of the horrid Ground weak. Poison-types are good enough to be high-UU and even OU/BL if they have some way of getting around that Ground weak (Gengar, Crobat). And our reasoning for Light being immune to Dark was that it was too pure to be corrupted by Dark (and in Pokemon, Dark IS generally evil, at least in terms of moves (Pursuit, Snatch, Thief, Umbrage, Torment, Taunt)). So now it can be tainted by Poison? I don't think so.

I don't know about Mandy. It's a good idea to have E4 members showing up early but Mandy is so... generic. I don't know. The E4 we have seem like they could be more mature and experienced than the Gym Leaders, I'm not very sold on shifting them around. We could have the E4 members showing up elsewhere regardless.

As for neon, I'm pretty sure at various points we have been discussing how to reduce the early clump of gym leaders. As I've said before, I'm okay with moving Hanzo and Mandy. I feel like the others should stay where they are though. If required move Mistvale to some place in the south of Caldera in the middle of nowhere, only accessible by Kirant, or a small island between them. That way you have a way to stick a Gym Leader in the middle of the drought. If needed we could even move Mt. Mist there so that the whole Mist/Ninja/different culture thing even makes sense. (It'd be isolated like Japan)

[Quinn]

yes neon, I for one heard you. Didn't you see my general gym lineup? Hanzo is like 8th or something, and at the beginning, there is only like 3. Cranewing, then Softwind, then Roothaven/Hollowlog.

I think me and zeneth are the only ones sold on the dark thing :P

[Merlin]

yes i agree with the too many gyms in begining but i cant think of anything outside of making the character go back later after recieving x# of badges...

and as for the Johto gyms set up for the johto league it's only for the games but you're allowed to have 8 gym badges from any 8 gyms to take on the e4 otherwise you'd be stuck going into kanto in gsc before fighting the e4
though it wouldn't hurt to find some way of letting the character take on those gyms without havign to go thru the whole kanto and/or johto league...
about the abilities i do think the starters should get something else even if it is a second ability so that people can have better starters....
if nothing else set it up so that the starter itself uses the original and then set it up so that the pokemon bred from the original have a better chance at getting the second ability

[Zenith]

And our reasoning for Light being immune to Dark was that it was too pure to be corrupted by Dark (and in Pokemon, Dark IS generally evil, at least in terms of moves (Pursuit, Snatch, Thief, Umbrage, Torment, Taunt)). So now it can be tainted by Poison? I don't think so.

I was going off the idea that most good guys in stories and stuff can see and stop obviously evil people and actions (Dark type, in this case), but all but the best heroes were vulnerable to slowly being corrupted from the inside (a la Poison). It's been used as a plot pretty often.

I don't know about Mandy. It's a good idea to have E4 members showing up early but Mandy is so... generic. I don't know. The E4 we have seem like they could be more mature and experienced than the Gym Leaders, I'm not very sold on shifting them around. We could have the E4 members showing up elsewhere regardless.

Well, the Gym Leaders and Elite Four are all League members, so they would all have a lot of competitive experience. How tough they are when someone fights them in official League matches depends on (for Leaders) how many badges you currently have; the E4 are especially hard because they're part of the final test to going pro.

The main reason I want to switch Mandy and Layla is because we already have Fernando, and Grass and Bug share two weaknesses and a resistance. There hasn't been a single Dark gym yet in the canon games, so having one in Topaz would give it more individuality. Furthermore, we would be taking out a Gym that the Venap line is weak to (right now, there are Gyms for all five of Grass' weaknesses), and the Celsinge line beats (which currently has four advantages, five with Kelvoyant, and only one weakness, which is so late it barely matters) with a gym that Dionare resists and Kelvoyant is weak to. Giving Layla's gym a Dark Is Not Evil theme would make it less cliche, and give it more character (Layla's name meaning "Night" especially helps).

[NyteFyre]

I'm actually seeing and understanding your points, Zenith, and I am for it!

[ImmunityBow]

I get them, but the big thing that's putting me off is the thought of Mandy in the E4. I really dislike that thought: she's a little girl, her character is totally unsuited to waiting around in a tower for challengers to appear. And she works fine as Kirant Gym Leader if needed, too.

[neon.Barnacle]

Let's think a bit broader, guys.


How about just scrapping Mandy? Nobody except me seems to want her as a gym leader, and I do agree that she's too similar to Bugsy. I don't want her in the E4 either, because like IB said she's only a little girl, and I'm also tired of seeing bug types in the E4 already. Finally, I don't see her as being a good NPC either since her role in the plot is minimal at best.


In short: scrap Mandy, replace her role in Hollowlog with one of the E4. There, problem solved.


Also, I do want to see a dark-type gym in this game, so what we could do is move Layla to one of the new gyms in Kirant and put someone else in her place in the E4.


To go along with my ideas, I also suggest scrapping Hanzo entirely. Ninjas are kind of overused anyway.

[Quinn]

1. I'm for that. ish. Either way, it doesn't really matter to me. My q is though, who would replace her in the E4? Light wouldn't work.

2. Zeneth and I have been trying to get that for some time now. Finally there is another view.

3. WATER GYM IN MISTVALE!!!

[neon.Barnacle]

By "scrapping Hanzo entirely" I'm also implying that Mistvale won't have a gym anymore. I want to remove 2 gyms from the early 5, so with the suggested configuration it'll be only Froy, Therma and Fernando before the player sets foot in Kirant.

[Quinn]

With the excpetion that my idea had Hanzo later, that was the same thing I thought.

*come on people...look at my stuff. Its kinda a slap in the face to hear suggestions that I already stated...generally.

[neon.Barnacle]

I was only responding to your WATER GYM IN MISTVALE!!! comment. Yes, I did read your previous posts suggesting to move Hanzo to a different city. If you were also implying then that Mistvale shouldn't have a gym then I agree with you.

[Quinn]

so...I think we are set with 3 starter leaders (this isn't confirmed. this is just by reading)...now should we continue?

[neon.Barnacle]

I'm still waiting to hear more opinions, but if we move on then the next step would be to determine exactly how many gym leaders we want. Once that's figured out, we can go about deciding on their gym themes and assigning them to cities.

[Merlin]

so here's a thought about Mandy...
remember Pearl and Diamond with Cheryl in the forest and the girl on victory road after the e4?
they weren't connected to the main storyline so why not do the same thing with Mandy by making her something similar to that?
i believe there were other characters in RSE, GSC, and FRLG that did that too i just don't remember who...(FRLG--girl on 3 island dealing with drowzee--wasn't part of main storyline and you could go there after e4 or before e4 if you wanted)

although if we have to scrap mandy that's ok i just figured we could try and save her for whoever it was that originally created her...

and yes get rid of the bug e4 members cause they're everywhere just about...

[NyteFyre]

I'm fine with all of those suggestions, Neon. And yes, Ninja's are over used.

[ImmunityBow]

But Hanzo's got a sprite D: . But sure, if we get another cool gym leader sprite we can scrap him.

Also, I'd like to recall the idea of putting another city on the southern part of Caldera that's only accessible from Kirant. That way you have some Caldera in the middle of the whole Kirant plotline.

I have another idea for the Kirant league. Why not, instead of basing them off of types, base them off of a theme? That way it seems different from an actual gym league. Also, people have been trying to put this into Gyms and E4 for ages, this is a chance to do something different.

If everyone is for Layla as a gym leader, then fine, I guess. A Normal-type E4 is fine as well, I guess (There are lots of good Normals around, Cunning Persian, Tauros, Miltank, etc.)

[Quinn]

or if he doens't look ninja like, we could revamp him to a new base.

*idk what you mean by "theme"

I like that last part. 2 strong things. The dark isn't evil, along with a Normal E4.

[SilentSentinel]

Theme could be anything really, from "smart pokemon" to "spreading status then attacking" like that one Elite 4 guy that PokePoindexter always wanted to put in. It's better than types imo.

[ImmunityBow]

Definitely not "spreading status then attacking" as a theme, though working around status effects could work (moves like Toxic, Facade, Venom Strike, Sleep Talk, Cascade, Smellingsalts etc.)

I was more thinking of themes such as "steam" and "pollution", but anything goes, really, as long as there's four strong themes for each that seem to go well together.

[Zenith]

I dunno. Basing a required gym on some possibly vague theme could easily come off as amateurish. Maybe we could have some kind of optional side league that does that, that's trying to gain reputation during the events of the story. We could have the official C/K League, with two gyms still in Kirant, and have four of these gyms as a side quest.

A Normal-type E4 is fine as well, I guess (There are lots of good Normals around, Cunning Persian, Tauros, Miltank, etc.)

Elite Four Whitney? Shit!

Wait, Topaz does take place around 20-25 years after the canon games, right? That might actually work...

[ImmunityBow]

Yeah, that's what I mean Zenith, though it's more of a powerful impact if there's a Caldera League and a Kirant Half-Alternate-League-Thing. If there must be C/K league gyms on Kirant though, due to spacing issues, so be it.

So, any ideas as to justifying why there'd be 4 separate gyms? Neon said it'd be kind of dumb to have another league that's basically just the Pokemon League, but I believe it's fine as long as we differentiate them enough.

[Reliability]

Well, instead of being "gyms" towards a league, we could instead use them to serve as a side quest thing. I don't know how many of the one-off Pokemon have solid placements, but we could have it so that after collecting badges (or something else, to separate it entirely from the gym concept) you will be given access to an area that contains one of the one-off's.

But since we're moving things around anyway, it opens up the possibility of leaving it at 8 gyms and simply dispersing them. But I am a fan of ditching Mandy and Hanzo, at least in the city he's in. IIRC, the sprite in generic enough that a few edits could turn him into something else, perhaps the E4 member slot that will be opened up by Layla leaving.