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Thread: Gym Leaders; Who And Where Are They?

  1. #41
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    Couldn't we do something more origional, like 3(5), 4(4), and 5(3) or 5(2) and 6(1)?
    That probably made no sense.
    Basically, 333334444555 or 333334444556.

  2. #42
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    We probably don't want to have the Gyms in the exact order you visit cities in. It'd be really linear. We need some way of keeping the region from being one long path.

    Also, I think we're making the Dark Gym last now, and putting it in Aquapolis.

  3. #43
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    Having it linear isn't really a bad thing, especially since the region is so huge. There should be enough side quests and main storyline that just because the gyms are in a pretty linear configuation, it won't mean that the adventure will be. Also, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to have too many "this gym is closed" things that you have to pass.

    I think it's pretty accepted that the Caldera gyms are going to be the first three and the last three gyms (with Layla being flexible to slot in at the end as well), so it's really just a matter of moving the Kirant ones around. I think that XTS's order is fine, but if you want, here is a more complex, "less-linear" option if people aren't happy:

    Fire
    Flying
    Grass
    Fighting
    [Poison gym is temporarily closed]
    Rock
    Light
    Poison
    Dragon
    Ice
    Ground
    Dark

    But it seems like an unnecessary amount of going back and forth


  4. #44
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    Or, of course, one of the gym leaders could have been kidnapped.

  5. #45
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    As long as we have reasons...it just doesn't make much sense for all of the Gym cities to make one perfect line. Having a couple of them be a little off the path would break up the monotony that having only sidequests be off the path would create.

    We need to have these types finalized, too. We don't want to end up using a type early that doesn't have very many 'Mons at the level the Gym will be at.

  6. #46
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    i agree with Zenith, though i also like straightforward paths. i never liked being denied an area over something, like how you had to go back to fight Norman in RSE
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  7. #47
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    I hadn't done this yet, so to get it out of the way, here are the Pokemon that are useable for the current Kirant gym types. I also will include a list of Pokemon that are not the type, but can be associated with it if we need to fill a slot.

    I left some obvious ones (ex.Phantasomo out of Light) because I want to leave certain options open for the E4, who haven't really been figured out IIRC.


  8. #48
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    It's a nice list and all, but a crapload of those overlap with each other. So you might want to figure out what you want to use where so you can see if you have enough or not.

    Going in reverse order, from last E4 backwards (pokemon in no particular order)....

    Ghost E4 - Phantasomo, Dusclops, Misticade, Misdreavus, Ferrian (okay, maybe not last...)
    Light E4 - Purior, Slowpriest, Ampharos, Espeon, Illumbra
    Water E4 - Tidasale, Starmie, Lanturn, Ludicolo, Kraklaw
    Steel E4 - Scizor, Skarmory, Quiisord, Metusk, Arowana

    Layla - Noctiger, Malduval, Harskrow, Vilephist, Sereberine
    Osiro - Destado, Sandslash, Cackinge, Flygon, Khaphix
    Christina - Frostorm, Iglonia, Polarice, Kunaiga
    Gerad - Stribra, Jolteon, Nimbolt, Bakurge
    Rock gym - Rhydon, Tsunall, Ingero, Leoracle
    Light gym - Coroona, Seraph, Thoraxa, Purior
    Dragon gym - Tropius, Malistril, Lapras, Drakodo
    Poison gym - Kondria, Qwilfish, Seviper, Weezing
    Fighting gym - Primeape, Zangoose, Blitzfaust, Wolfrost (I'd actually support the Fighting gym being delayed for whatever reason - it's actually quite powerful for just having got out of Caldera)

    ....and the first 3 Caldera gyms can remain pretty much the same.

    Eh. Maybe something like that, anyway?
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  9. #49
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    Thank you. I can't make lists late at night.
    This looks like it will work, and it is possible to delay Fighting, since Poison looks fine to be the fourth with that lineup.

    IB was concerned about having Chuck come up, and the lack of fighting types and having to push the gym back has definitely made the idea less convincing to me then it was before. I can see three options: apply that line-up to him and come up with a new type, try to build two slightly different ones, or take Chuck out as a leader.


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    XTS' list look fine to me, though i just woke up so... e.e
    Anyway we could always have Chuck, and possibly Jasmine as extra bonus leaders, or something...

    Also, do we have to get all 12 badges, or can we do like in the canon series, with making it so you only need 8, but you can get more if you wish? like when Gary had 10 badges in Kanto
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  11. #51
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    I think we should make it all 12, since the levelling challenges for having two optional ones and then the E4 might be more difficult than it's worth.

    Chuck and Jasmine are already "bonus leaders," it's more a question as to whether he's fight-able or not. Since we don't have Chuck's Poliwrath or Jasmine's Steelix (their "signature" Pokemon), perhaps they would have to come in after the E4 and all that, when these Pokemon are introduced? That would at least reduce the factor of having two fighting leaders and we could replicate Chuck's old line-up and avoid too much overlap with the other Fighting leader (and consequently, Jasmine with Greyson).


  12. #52
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    I'm worried that the Poison gym is really quite weak. Maybe even Pythang over Seviper. I don't see any problems yet, I'll mention issues when I think of them. Still iffy about Fighting-type, I feel like we could pull off Normal with Miltank/Tauros/Eaglair/Persian or something. It'd certainly be quite the powerful team.

  13. #53
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    well, that's kind of what i meant about Chuck, you know, an optional gym/fight, though yea, after E4 would make it better./
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImmunityBow View Post
    I'm worried that the Poison gym is really quite weak. Maybe even Pythang over Seviper. I don't see any problems yet, I'll mention issues when I think of them. Still iffy about Fighting-type, I feel like we could pull off Normal with Miltank/Tauros/Eaglair/Persian or something. It'd certainly be quite the powerful team.
    I definitely thought about a normal gym as a really feasible option. Like you said, there are some pretty good options in there for it. And I was pretty sure we would put Pythang instead of Seviper. But really, it's only the fourth/fifth gym out of twelve instead of eight, so how powerful does it really need to be?


  15. #55
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    I almost feel that if it's 5th gym, then cutting Kondria and having Pythang as a final Pokemon would be much more menacing. Kondria and Qwilfish are decidedly unspectacular, and Weezing does little to make up for what they lack, since it's so defensive. Instead, a trainer in the gym could run Kondria.

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    So...Seviper and Pythang? Aren't we trying to avoid multiple 'mons from the same line in these lineups?

    And a few other comments, with potential changes:
    Quote Originally Posted by XTS View Post
    Light E4 - Purior, Slowpriest, Ampharos, Espeon, Illumbra
    Slowpriest could possibly be replaced with Dolphure. And with a Water/Light either way, this fight can't be right before or after the Water one.

    Quote Originally Posted by XTS View Post
    Layla - Noctiger, Malduval, Harskrow, Crawdaunt, Abyssus
    Crawdaunt isn't used in any other lineup, and fits better in an underwater Gym. Abyssus and its ability works with the "fear" motif more.

    Quote Originally Posted by XTS View Post
    Osiro - Destado, Sandslash, Cackinge, Flygon, Khaphix
    Do we have any better options than Sandslash? It's kind of the odd one out in the second last Leader's team.

    Quote Originally Posted by XTS View Post
    Rock gym - Rhydon, Tsunall, Ingero, Leoracle
    Would probably have this earlier. Only ten Rock types (Rel, you forgot the Gargoth line), and earlier gyms have fewer trainers.

    Quote Originally Posted by XTS View Post
    Light gym - Coroona, Seraph, Benengil, Purior
    This will have to be a mid-late Gym. Every Light type in the game besides Engil is a final stage evolution. At the same time, this would make it harder to make Tristan's potential bump into the E4 less surprising, since it would be so close together in game. And Thoraxa's pure Poison.

    Quote Originally Posted by XTS View Post
    Dragon gym - Arowana, Malistril, Lapras, Drakodo
    Arowana's a lot more of a threat than Tropius. Not like it'll be overpowered...not like we can't make the Dragon gym late. Lapras stayed 'cause there isn't a Water gym, and there is a Grass one. We could get away with giving a couple trainers Vibrava.

    Quote Originally Posted by XTS View Post
    Poison gym - Venomoth, Qwilfish, Pythang, Weezing
    We don't have a Bug gym anymore, sooo...

    Quote Originally Posted by XTS View Post
    Fighting gym - Primeape, Zangoose, Blitzfaust, Wolfrost
    Yeah, we can't use this fourth. >_> I'd recommend replacing this gym with a Normal one. We only have 8 Fighting types to work with.
    Last edited by Zenith; 10-12-10 at 05:12 AM.

  17. #57
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    Arowana's actually quite overused in the League if I'm not mistaken. Brontogon is another option, but Tropius/Brontogon are nice since they are dragon-like but offer different coverage. Especially at that point in the game, where Ice and Dragon-types aren't too available yet, it helps keep your whole team useful.

    I agree with most others: definitely Venomoth over Kondria.

  18. #58
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    -shrugs- They seem fine to me, though Brontogon over the obviously OU Arowanna is a definite, unless the dragon gym is going to be like Clair, and be the last gym, or something.

    Also, what about Leader Rematches? will we have them? and if so, when?
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  19. #59
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    I would avoid using Dolphure over Slowpreist, simply because Dolphure is a starter. But the other suggestions are valid.

    Is there anyone totally opposed to scrapping the Fighting gym for a Normal one? Speak now like Taylor Swift, so we can move on. (I'm sure no one will complain if someone wants to design a strating point for the line-up)

    Also keep in mind that we do need to stock the gym trainers as well, so if you're put out by something not being in the leader's line-up, hope is not lost.


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    i don't really care about these kinds of things, though i would like to see Gryphonic, and Cragoyle in there somewhere.

    Also, I think the last like 3 gyms should have 6 on the leaders team or something like that. I hate it when it's almost always the same number from gym to gym in the middle areas. I know! Why not start off with the first Gym having only 2 (like Brock) then the next 3 gyms have 3, the next 4 have 4, the next 2 have 5, and the last 2 have 6? I prefer more variety in the gym leaders numbers.

    And maybe, we could have a gym leader have only one pokemon, but it be really powerful?
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  21. #61
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    We already have the first 3 gyms set pretty well, let's not go back and tinker around with them? >_>

    I could see a Kirant gym getting the Chuck treatment - only having two pokemon, but powerful ones. Probably either the Light gym (Slowpriest and Purior) or Dragon gym (Malistril and Drakodo - I support this being left at 3 with just Lapras added, in any case)....

    For Layla, I left Crawdaunt off because it's just not that good. Vilephist is very heavy hitting, and ought to actually provide a challenge. And if you want the "fear" motif, Serberine is a freaking three-headed Rottweiler (basically). I suppose serberine could be slid down into Malduval or Noctiger's slot to make room for Abyssus at the end.

    If you don't want Sandslash on Osiro, you can take Rhydon from the Rock gym instead. Its place could be taken by the how-did-I-forget-it Cragoyle, and the gym trainers in both gyms could still use Rhyhorn.

    If the Fighting gym is being replaced by a Normal gym (which I'm not a fan of, but not enough to argue against it), I move for Tristan to get Blitzfaust on at least his E4 lineup, perhaps as a gym leader as well (Blitzfaust-Purior could be great for a two-pokemon roster).
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    This seems fine to me, XTS. Still though, what are the first 3 gym lineups? i don't know them...
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  23. #63
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    http://www.pokemontopaz.net/forums/s...az-Gym-Leaders

    Right in this subforum, stickied. Sometimes it does you good to look around.

    EDIT: 3rd gym leader is Fernando, since Hanzo got dropped. He could probably do with a small level drop, but otherwise I see no reason to change him, Froy, or Therma.
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    Well, we could drop Brontogon on Fernando, and Growlithe on Froy, to allow Brontogon to be on the Dragon Leader's team, and lose Growlithe to show off the fire types of the C/K region.

    And i did look around...I just missed that somehow. it needs to be updated anyway.
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    Do you really notice that much when the number of Pokemon in the gym stays constant? I certainly don't.

    I'm going to go ahead and say Normal over Fighting type. We have Chuck, we have great canon Normal-types with new quirks to make up for our lack of Topaz Normals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XTS View Post
    I could see a Kirant gym getting the Chuck treatment - only having two pokemon, but powerful ones. Probably either the Light gym (Slowpriest and Purior) or Dragon gym (Malistril and Drakodo - I support this being left at 3 with just Lapras added, in any case)....
    Don't think that would work. First of all, Johto's gyms didn't exactly have the best planning behind them...considering there are Johto gyms that only have 4 'mons in their type. >_> Second of all, the Dragon gym would really work better later, and having only a couple 'mons in the leader's lineup that late would make the fight too easy. And we can't make the Light gym too early because, again, Engil is the only one that isn't a final stage. Limiting the leader's lineup wouldn't fix that because even the Gym trainers will be using them.

    Quote Originally Posted by XTS View Post
    For Layla, I left Crawdaunt off because it's just not that good. Vilephist is very heavy hitting, and ought to actually provide a challenge. And if you want the "fear" motif, Serberine is a freaking three-headed Rottweiler (basically). I suppose serberine could be slid down into Malduval or Noctiger's slot to make room for Abyssus at the end.
    Okay, I can see what you mean about Crawdaunt. A few of the gym trainers can use it. Vilephist, Serberine, and Abyssus are all physical sweepers, and I wanted to limit the amount of similar-styled 'mons on the same team. Abyssus also works better with the "overcoming fear" philosophy of the gym that we seem to be agreeing on. I want to leave Malduval in to stop Bug sweeps...maybe Dionare would work, to stop Fighting sweeps. And since Layla's gym would be the last of 12, her team would probably be high enough for her to actually use Raiger.

    Quote Originally Posted by XTS View Post
    If you don't want Sandslash on Osiro, you can take Rhydon from the Rock gym instead. Its place could be taken by the how-did-I-forget-it Cragoyle, and the gym trainers in both gyms could still use Rhyhorn.
    Is that really our only choice? Ouch. Rhydon's typing is really bad, and its stats aren't good enough to make up for it (unlike Rhyperior). Rhydon would work better in the Rock gym, trainers in Osiro's gym could still use it. Cragoyle seems more like something Therma would have on her rematch team.

    Quote Originally Posted by XTS View Post
    If the Fighting gym is being replaced by a Normal gym (which I'm not a fan of, but not enough to argue against it), I move for Tristan to get Blitzfaust on at least his E4 lineup, perhaps as a gym leader as well (Blitzfaust-Purior could be great for a two-pokemon roster).
    Yeah, we could put Blitzfaust on his E4 lineup.

    And some miscellaneous ideas:
    -The Normal leader's signature 'mon could be Zantilidae. I would actually recommend having the Normal gym fourth in this case.
    -Reducing Froy's lineup to 2 and Fernando's lineup to 3 is more for balance, especially in Froy's case. Players won't have that many options for stuff to catch early on.
    -Fernando can't have both Wolvine and Phantern. I would recommend changing the Wolvine to Canileaf.
    -And are we gonna change Topaz Phantern's name, so people don't confuse it with OI Phantern?
    -The last 5 gyms could be Tristan (wherever)->Christina (Skobeloff Village)->Dragon leader (wherever)->Osiro (Saharan City)->Layla (Aquapolis). I actually have a plan for the Dragon one, but that ties into map stuff.
    -We need to figure out badge names for the new Gyms, and what TMs they give out. We might need to add more TMs.
    Last edited by Zenith; 10-13-10 at 02:18 AM.

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    Sorry, Raiger is firmly in Vincent territory, as a Champion Pokemon.

    Cragoyle could work fine in Sedcini, too, to deal with Grass-types.

    Since we're not having the TRPG on OI anymore, I see no reason to change Phantern's name any more than I see any reason to change Embear and Grizzlare from Tanzanite.

    Ah yes, TMs... Is it fine if we give out non-Topaz move TMs, such as Dragon Claw etc.?

  28. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
    Second of all, the Dragon gym would really work better later, and having only a couple 'mons in the leader's lineup that late would make the fight too easy. And we can't make the Light gym too early because, again, Engil is the only one that isn't a final stage. Limiting the leader's lineup wouldn't fix that because even the Gym trainers will be using them.
    The Dragon gym doesn't have to come later, and I'd actually prefer it to come sooner rather than later to break the mold that seems to be formed of Dragon trainers automatically being elite (Lance and Drake in the E4, Clair as the final gym leader). And even if the Light gym is "early-ish," it will still be fine. At the earliest, it will be gym 5, which has had pretty powerful Pokemon to it in the past. Besides, Purior and Seraph are both single stages and there are plenty of Pokemon we could include as Light kind-of types, so those are viable if we need to use them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
    Okay, I can see what you mean about Crawdaunt. A few of the gym trainers can use it. Vilephist, Serberine, and Abyssus are all physical sweepers, and I wanted to limit the amount of similar-styled 'mons on the same team. Abyssus also works better with the "overcoming fear" philosophy of the gym that we seem to be agreeing on. I want to leave Malduval in to stop Bug sweeps...maybe Dionare would work, to stop Fighting sweeps. And since Layla's gym would be the last of 12, her team would probably be high enough for her to actually use Raiger.
    Dionare can't be used, it's a starter.

    You'll also note that none of the canon gyms are putting as much competitive thought into their gyms as you are. You could easily sweep most of the Jhoto and Hoenn gyms with a single type quite easily. And many of them used the same types of Pokemon. It's nice that we have someone to think about these things, but I would prefer putting more aesthetic thought into the line-ups, then think more competitive when it come to move sets. But that's just me.

    Is that really our only choice? Ouch. Rhydon's typing is really bad, and its stats aren't good enough to make up for it (unlike Rhyperior). Rhydon would work better in the Rock gym, trainers in Osiro's gym could still use it. Cragoyle seems more like something Therma would have on her rematch team.
    Cragoyle would actually be well suited to a Rock gym. Re-match teams are a thing of the distant future.

    And some miscellaneous ideas:
    -The Normal leader's signature 'mon could be Zantilidae. I would actually recommend having the Normal gym fourth in this case.
    -Reducing Froy's lineup to 2 and Fernando's lineup to 3 is more for balance, especially in Froy's case. Players won't have that many options for stuff to catch early on.
    -Fernando can't have both Wolvine and Phantern. I would recommend changing the Wolvine to Canileaf.
    -And are we gonna change Topaz Phantern's name, so people don't confuse it with OI Phantern?
    -The last 5 gyms could be Tristan (wherever)->Christina (Skobeloff Village)->Dragon leader (wherever)->Osiro (Saharan City)->Layla (Aquapolis). I actually have a plan for the Dragon one, but that ties into map stuff.
    -We need to figure out badge names for the new Gyms, and what TMs they give out. We might need to add more TMs.
    -Yes
    -Sure
    -If I had to choose, I would rather have him keep Wolvine and save Phantern for the Ghost E4. Wolvine has nowhere else to be since we're scrapping the Fighting gym
    -We discussed this, and I think we decided that on OI, the name would be changed to... something that I can't remember, but as far as Topaz is concerned, it will stay the same
    -That's a lot of back and forth in a really spread out region. Kanto was fine because it was dense and there were lots of routes to take, but I would prefer to have Gerad, Christina and Osiro together if possible, then we can mess around with the order of the Kirant gyms (as the bulk of the plot line will occur here anyway, which can facilitate the gym order and vice-versa)
    -I'm not sure what the TM list looks like, but I hadn't thought about that. If it is an issue, we could stick with 8 original TM's (obviously moving Mandy and Hanzo's to appropriate subs) and have the others give out some other item. Or just have the Kirant gyms give out another kind of item and the Caldera give out TM's. That might help to separate the "two leagues." The badge names will probably be easy, but that should wait until we have a firmer grip on what these gyms are going to be. Once all of that is finalized, we can worry about the little things.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Reliability View Post
    The Dragon gym doesn't have to come later, and I'd actually prefer it to come sooner rather than later to break the mold that seems to be formed of Dragon trainers automatically being elite (Lance and Drake in the E4, Clair as the final gym leader).
    Most dragons are just too damn strong for early gyms. They resist all three starter types, their attacks have incredible neutral coverage, and every one of them in canon besides Altaria is OU or better right now. I recommended putting the Dragon gym 10th, roughly equivalent to the 7th gym in an 8-gym system, which is still earlier than it's ever been.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reliability View Post
    And even if the Light gym is "early-ish," it will still be fine. At the earliest, it will be gym 5, which has had pretty powerful Pokemon to it in the past. Besides, Purior and Seraph are both single stages and there are plenty of Pokemon we could include as Light kind-of types, so those are viable if we need to use them.
    The 5th gym in an 8-gym system is just past halfway. The 5th gym in a 12-gym system isn't even halfway. We also want to avoid using pseudo-types if at all possible. They're only used when there aren't enough of a certain type for the gym to work at any point, or when an earlier form isn't the right type, but its evolution is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reliability View Post
    Dionare can't be used, it's a starter.
    Gardenia uses Turtwig. Flint uses Infernape. Jasmine has Empoleon in her rematch team. I rest my case. >_>

    Quote Originally Posted by Reliability View Post
    You'll also note that none of the canon gyms are putting as much competitive thought into their gyms as you are. You could easily sweep most of the Jhoto and Hoenn gyms with a single type quite easily. And many of them used the same types of Pokemon. It's nice that we have someone to think about these things, but I would prefer putting more aesthetic thought into the line-ups, then think more competitive when it come to move sets. But that's just me.
    Well, think about it. The Leaders use teams specifically to test amateur trainers. They're gonna make it harder over time. When a Dark gym is the last one you face, the leader isn't gonna just run a team that, say, Primeape can effortlessly sweep. Gamefreak just happens to not have a very good idea competitively. Furthermore, our target audience is gonna be older, as younger kids usually won't download a game like this by themselves, so we can afford to step the difficulty up a little.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reliability View Post
    Cragoyle would actually be well suited to a Rock gym. Re-match teams are a thing of the distant future.
    I looked up the Rhyhorn line. Turns out Rhyhorn doesn't turn into Rhydon until Level 42. So it really would work better with Osiro.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reliability View Post
    If I had to choose, I would rather have him keep Wolvine and save Phantern for the Ghost E4. Wolvine has nowhere else to be since we're scrapping the Fighting gym.
    The only problem I have with that is that Wolvine has no reason to use Cherry Bomb. And it wouldn't be like a League member to give Cherry Bomb to something that learns Leaf Blade naturally. On the other hand, the Jackalant line's Physical Attack is crap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reliability View Post
    That's a lot of back and forth in a really spread out region. Kanto was fine because it was dense and there were lots of routes to take, but I would prefer to have Gerad, Christina and Osiro together if possible, then we can mess around with the order of the Kirant gyms (as the bulk of the plot line will occur here anyway, which can facilitate the gym order and vice-versa)
    I have a plan to make it work better. I'll get it typed up...tomorrow. And since the 7th or 8th badge will probably be the one to unlock Fly, some backtracking won't be a concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reliability View Post
    I'm not sure what the TM list looks like, but I hadn't thought about that. If it is an issue, we could stick with 8 original TM's (obviously moving Mandy and Hanzo's to appropriate subs) and have the others give out some other item. Or just have the Kirant gyms give out another kind of item and the Caldera give out TM's. That might help to separate the "two leagues."
    It's still one League, it just covers two distinct areas. And having just eight leaders give out TMs would feel kind of...strange. Why would the C/K League not regulate that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
    Most dragons are just too damn strong for early gyms. They resist all three starter types, their attacks have incredible neutral coverage, and every one of them in canon besides Altaria is OU or better right now. I recommended putting the Dragon gym 10th, roughly equivalent to the 7th gym in an 8-gym system, which is still earlier than it's ever been.
    XTS suggested that we could use a Chuck-esque line-up: two strong pokemon instead of several slightly weaker ones. This could work here. Also, see next comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
    The 5th gym in an 8-gym system is just past halfway. The 5th gym in a 12-gym system isn't even halfway. We also want to avoid using pseudo-types if at all possible. They're only used when there aren't enough of a certain type for the gym to work at any point, or when an earlier form isn't the right type, but its evolution is.
    I don't think it's going to be possible to fit 12 gyms into 8 gym level scheme. It will just not work. Especially with a plot line that looks as long (if not longer) than any canon game, the player is going to get stronger faster than the gym leaders do if we try to squeeze their levels in. If we're implementing a 12 gym system, the E4 is going to have to be much stronger than the top level 40's into 50's like they have been previously. (IIRC)
    I agree that using pseudo-types is not necessary, but if they were needed to fill certain slots in gym trainer lines where all the other Pokemon are too powerful, we have those as options.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
    Gardenia uses Turtwig. Flint uses Infernape. Jasmine has Empoleon in her rematch team. I rest my case. >_>
    All in the 4th generation. Up until that point, it simply was not the case. It depends whether we want to bring that in from the 4th generation as well, or keep it like it was before. I was never a fan of having starters in the teams, but that's just my personal preference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
    Well, think about it. The Leaders use teams specifically to test amateur trainers. They're gonna make it harder over time. When a Dark gym is the last one you face, the leader isn't gonna just run a team that, say, Primeape can effortlessly sweep. Gamefreak just happens to not have a very good idea competitively. Furthermore, our target audience is gonna be older, as younger kids usually won't download a game like this by themselves, so we can afford to step the difficulty up a little.
    The levels go up, which makes it harder. :P Anyhow, those of us who aren't competitive battlers might not appreciate the increase in difficulty. This is a long enough game as it is without having to over-train in order to get through the gyms because Layla's strategy to too flawless for me to beat.
    Our demographic is currently unknown. It's likely that 5 year olds won't be playing this game, but I'm pretty sure most seven year-olds I know could download a file from the Internet.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
    The only problem I have with that is that Wolvine has no reason to use Cherry Bomb. And it wouldn't be like a League member to give Cherry Bomb to something that learns Leaf Blade naturally. On the other hand, the Jackalant line's Physical Attack is crap.
    We just finished determining that Polarice on Christina's team isn't going to carry Icicle whip, which is her TM. As long as some Pokemon on the team has the move, I don't think that it particularly matters that one does not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
    I have a plan to make it work better. I'll get it typed up...tomorrow. And since the 7th or 8th badge will probably be the one to unlock Fly, some backtracking won't be a concern.
    It's still annoying to have gyms closed for one reason or another when you go through them the first time, and a feeling of "oh, I've already been here..." when you have to go back. It just wouldn't feel the same as the canon games, when as soon as you get to the town, you can fight the gym leader without having to go and beat someone else (barring Olivine and Hearthome).


    Quote Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
    It's still one League, it just covers two distinct areas. And having just eight leaders give out TMs would feel kind of...strange. Why would the C/K League not regulate that?
    Well, you said it yourself: they're distinct regions. They are too different to be umbrellaed under the same name, and the C/K league would have to accept the diversity and that there might be differences in the ways that certain gyms are run.
    And if we can find TM's to put in all the gyms, then that would be awesome. I'm just presenting alternatives so that if we can't get it to work, we have other ideas.


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    While you both put out nice arguments, i think there can be a compromise.

    On the competitiveness, I don't think Zenith was talking about making them like people do on Battle.net, but something similar, like having movesets that work well, and have coverage, at least in the later gyms. I agree that there should be a bit more competitiveness when facing the leaders, but make sure not to over-do it.

    I always hated backtracking, and actually, in every generation, there has been backtracking in some way shape or form. Norman has to be passed up early in Gen 3, there's Hearthome in Gen 4, Kanto has a ton, and there's Olivine in Jhoto. Face it, there is always going to be forced backtracking in Canon games. I say we leave backtracking for after the E4, for like items/areas you couldn't reach previously, and such.

    From my experience, XTS's idea for Wolvine is fine. Not every pokemon a gym leader has will have his signature move. In fact, it's usually reserved for their last, most powerful pokemon.

    Distinct Regions giving out different items is fine for me. I hate some of the TMs you get from leaders, some i never use, or only the early ones, cause i need more powerful moves. That's it. I'd rather get hold items i can use, over TMs i won't. I think the first 3, which i believe are in Caldera, should give out TMs, to help you along, then the ones in Kirant give out Hold Items to help boost your game, then the last 3 give out TMs you will actually use, and are good to have. but that's just me.

    I don't particularly like starters, and usually box mine after a certain amount of time, except for Jhoto, love my Typhlosion to death. I wouldn't care if trainers use them, or even gym trainers, but i would rather not see the Gym Leaders using them, or the E4 for that matter.

    I'd like the idea of a battle that, even if you train well, and have a good team, you can still get your ass kicked by only 2 pokemon. I'm for the Chuck-Esque Dragon Gym. I never liked the predictable steady increase in the number of pokemon a leader uses, and think it would be a unique experience. Like how Inev is only using an Espeon on OI, but due to that, it is really tough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NyteFyre View Post
    I always hated backtracking, and actually, in every generation, there has been backtracking in some way shape or form. Norman has to be passed up early in Gen 3, there's Hearthome in Gen 4, Kanto has a ton, and there's Olivine in Jhoto. Face it, there is always going to be forced backtracking in Canon games.
    The gyms in Isshu follow a straight, linear path, no backtracking required, because, like C/K, it's a big enough region that backtracking isn't necessary. Just figured I'd throw that out there.

    Also, no starters on the E4 besides the Champ, because Vincent has the starter strong against yours, so depending on what you pick both he and an E4 member could then have the same pokemon. Not gonna happen.
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    Okay, let me see if I covered everything.

    -Nyte gets what I meant about the difficulty. I'm not talking Smogon-level; I just don't want the player to be able to bring a 'mon into a gym with a type that beats the gym's type and sweep effortlessly. I want the player to have to think on their toes to beat the Leaders...they're the game's major boss fights, after all.

    -I don't mind backtracking, as long as it's done well and there's an incentive to do so. No one really mentions how you have to go back to Saffron in R/B/Y because you're not just there for the gym...you're also there to kick Team Rocket out of the Sylph Co. headquarters. In HG/SS no one really minds having to go back to Cianwood when the Safari Zone opens up because there's two completely new routes to explore as well. If it's done in a way that makes the player interested, backtracking is okay.

    -Black & White get away with making the main game follow a perfect line because of the design of the region. Caldera-Kirant is too complex to just make a big loop. Again, a complex map isn't a bad thing if it's done well.

    -Wolvine will be Fernando's signature 'mon. And the problem is that out of his team, only Cacnea can use Cherry Bomb well. Wolvine has Leaf Blade, and Jackalant's Attack is 20 points lower than its Special Attack.

    -I'm still worried about having a Leader with a 2-mon team late because of how it changes the fight. Any hax affect the battle a lot more when the team is smaller, especially late game, when the player will have so many ways of making those hax happen.

    -I know the gyms will still level at close to the same pace as the canon games, but I still don't want Tristan's gym too early. While there are a few Light types that are single-stage, having it mid-late game at the earliest gives us the ability to use all of them, meaning we won't need to resort to pseudo-Lights as much.

    -I don't want to put starters on E4 teams. I was thinking that they wouldn't be out of the question elsewhere. ...Actually, Harskrow resists Fighting as well...

    -While Caldera and Kirant have kind-of-different cultures, the Gyms are all run by the League.

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    Also, no starters on the E4 besides the Champ, because Vincent has the starter strong against yours, so depending on what you pick both he and an E4 member could then have the same pokemon. Not gonna happen.
    This is what i was saying. =_= I don't want starter on the leaders teams, and i don't want them on the E4 teams. I don't mind so much if a random trainer, or a corresponding gym trainer having one or two of them, but no more.

    I don't mind backtracking, as long as it's done well and there's an incentive to do so...If it's done in a way that makes the player interested, backtracking is okay.
    This is kind of what i meant. It's fine if there's a good reason to do so, not like skipping Hearthome, and Norman, just because they're too strong. Crappy reasoning, and constantly doing so make backtracking very irksome...

    And please don't quote B/W to me, i know almost nothing about the region, or it's pokemon, or stuff like that and don't want to...4th gen ruined canon games for me. I may get Black or White when they get cheaper (and come out in the US), but i'm not caring for it at the moment.

    Wolvine will be Fernando's signature 'mon. And the problem is that out of his team, only Cacnea can use Cherry Bomb well. Wolvine has Leaf Blade, and Jackalant's Attack is 20 points lower than its Special Attack.
    Well, either change up the team, or just give it to Cacnea is all i can think of. Personally, I don't care who gets the Signature TM that much, so this doesn't bother me any.

    -I'm still worried about having a Leader with a 2-mon team late because of how it changes the fight. Any hax affect the battle a lot more when the team is smaller, especially late game, when the player will have so many ways of making those hax happen.
    Well then, we'll just have to amp it up some so the hax doesn't have as potent an effect By this, i mean the difficulty/AI Intel level, to help cross out this possible match changer.. Besides, they're Dragons, hax, while it does help, is not all that much of an advantage over these mythical beasts.
    Last edited by NyteFyre; 10-15-10 at 02:38 AM.
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    For the TMs, I do like the idea of Caldera gym leaders giving out TMs (and Venom Strike and Focus Sight being found randomly elsewhere) and Kirant gym leaders giving items. The Sedcini Rock gym leader, for instance, would be perfect for giving out Plain Stone.

    As for competitiveness of Gym leaders, I like having coverage, but we don't need to optimize the TM with the Pokemon. Fernando's Phantern not being able to use Cherry Bomb well doesn't matter because Cherry Bomb is really freaking powerful for that point in the game. That's an 80 base power move in the third gym in the game. That's pretty insanely good considering that even Fahramane is probably using Ember at this point in time.

    Backtracking is unfortunately inevitable with the cyclical nature of the region. You'll have to go through Icthyes and Cetacea then go back to Colossus to proceed to Dynamo Gardens.

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    Maybe....you know that Rivalry orb you need for Pythang/Zantidae? Well, i was thinking that the Poison, and Normal type gyms could hand you each other's half, and each half alone would make it's type more powerful, and then you have to go somewhere special to get them fused, allowing access to those two...but that's just an idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NyteFyre View Post
    Maybe....you know that Rivalry orb you need for Pythang/Zantidae? Well, i was thinking that the Poison, and Normal type gyms could hand you each other's half, and each half alone would make it's type more powerful, and then you have to go somewhere special to get them fused, allowing access to those two...but that's just an idea.
    I agree with this, it sounds like a good idea. So you would have Rivalry Orb Half (P) and (N) which would just provide a power boost like the sunglasses, plates etc?

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    It's not a bad idea, since Pythang and Zantilidae are prime candidates for their teams, too. We could even have a bit of a rivalry between the two leaders, themselves.

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    I'm very on board.


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    All right, glad to see my ideas come to fruition. Now what about the stuff Zenith and XTS were on about?
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