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Thread: Gym Leader Info and Discussion

  1. #1
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    Default Gym Leader Info and Discussion

    This here is a guide to the gym system of Caldera/Kirant. There has been a lot of revamping to the system we are using, and a lot of the information is spread out in several topics and some of it is locked away in my head. If you get through this post at least, you should be pretty well informed.

    The Pokemon Leauge of Caldera/Kirant has twelve gyms instead of the typical eight, because the region is actually two continents who, though tied together geographically, are radically different in culture and tradition. By giving each continent six gyms, the Pokemon League hoped to give a sense of individuality in each region without having to create two leagues in the area.

    This is the gym order as it stands right now, with all applicable information. Please reference the map on the site if you are unfamiliar where things are.

    (1)Froy
    Cranewing City
    Type: Fire
    Badge: Glass Badge
    Enables: HM01 (Cut)
    TM: Flare


    (2)Therma
    Softwind City
    Type: Flying
    Badge: Gale Badge
    Enables: HM05 (Flash)
    TM: Windwhistle


    (3)Fernando
    Roothaven City
    Type: Grass
    Badge: Vine Badge
    Enables: HM03 (Surf)
    TM: Cherry Bomb


    (4)Jane
    Kalypso City
    Type: Normal
    Badge: Staccato Badge
    TM: Statronome


    (5)Bella
    Gallea City
    Type: Poison
    Badge: Elixir Badge
    TM: Venom Strike


    (6)Tristan
    Portwind City
    Type: Light
    Badge: Shining Badge
    Enables: HM06 (Rock Smash)
    TM: Holy Fist


    (7)Wolfe
    Sedcini City
    Type: Dragon
    Badge: Fantasy Badge
    Enables: HM02 (Fly)
    TM: Dragon Claw


    (8)Crys
    Enechestra
    Type:Rock
    Badge: Opal Badge
    Enables: HM04 (Strength)
    TM: Megafriction


    (9)Gerad
    Dynamo Gardens
    Type: Electric
    Badge: Tesla Badge
    TM: Overload


    (10)Christina
    Skobeloff Town
    Type: Ice
    Badge: Rime Badge
    TM: Icicle Whip


    (11)Osiro
    Saharan City
    Type: Ground
    Badge: Sphinx Badge
    Enables: HM08 (Dive)
    TM: Fault Line


    (12)Layla
    Aquapolis City
    Type: Dark
    Badge: Deep Badge
    Enables: HM07 (Waterfall)
    TM: Umbrage


    In the Graphics Forum, there is a topic for suggesting gym puzzles, which are slowly coming together.
    We also still need sprites for most of our leaders right now. Froy and Therma are the only officialized ones.
    ---
    In this topic, we can continue discussion about several things. Included in this are:
    -issues concerning the proposed gym order
    -suggestions for/issues with the HM list
    -names for Kirant badges
    -gym leader lineup changes
    -anything else relevant

    I can edit this post if changes are made, or if more info is needed.
    Commence discussion.
    Last edited by Reliability; 04-28-11 at 11:08 PM.


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    Thanks, Reli!

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    Edit button expired.

    How does one get to Olivine or Cianwood?

    Also, suggestions for the badges:
    Gallea: Venom Badge
    Sedcini: Fantasy Badge
    Aquapolis: Celestial Badge

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannigon64 View Post
    Also, suggestions for the badges:
    Gallea: Venom Badge
    Sedcini: Fantasy Badge
    Aquapolis: Celestial Badge
    I like Gallea, but I think something like Eclipse Badge would be better for Aquaplois. Celestail might work for Sedcini, but I'm not a fan of "Fantasy".

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    I'll come up with some proposed levels/gym lineups when I get home.

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    Eclipse is used far to often, and it's bad enough we have one twilight reference here.
    I think we could use Phantasm badge,maybe, for Sedcini

    Also, maybe the Etheral Badge, or the Penumbra Badge for Aquapolis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NyteFyre View Post
    Eclipse is used far to often, and it's bad enough we have one twilight reference here.
    I don't think it matters what other fangames use, as long as the official games don't have it.

    Also, it's not a reference to twiglight. It is the alignment of the moon between Earth and the sun, or the alignment of Earth between the Sun and the moon. If you're looking for references, you can find one in pretty much everything. As long as Aquapolis has nothing to do with the book (I've never read it, but I'd assume that it doesn't), it isn't a reference.

    Another option: Umbra badge. More darkness related than Penumbra.

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    Yeah, but Umbra is already in use as a move, and as an ability. Penumbral isn't currently in use.

    I'm sorry, I can't help it. I've had enough of the Twilight fan-girls at my school. It's practically driven me insane that the mention of those just irks me.
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    Didn't realize that Umbra was a move.

    I don't see why twilight is such a big deal to people. It seems that everybody either hates it or loves it. It's a book. Don't be so obsessed, people. It can irritate me, too.

    By the way, what other reference were you talking about?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannigon64 View Post
    How does one get to Olivine or Cianwood?
    That will definitely occur after the E4, so I'm not worrying about it right now. The most likely options are a ground route from Laysan to Cianwood or a sea route from Neo Bay to Olivine. These routes may or may not be travel-able. It may just be easier to have a boat/train pick you up, then drop you off.


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    Yeah, those sound fine to me, Reli.

    And Cynda, I used to be like you, but...Well, it all got to much after so long.
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    Gallea: Elixir Badge (some of the most effective medicine comes from the deadliest poisons; a master of Poison-types should be able to appreciate each, so her badge represents that)

    Portwind: Shining Badge (subtle nod to Claire's Rising Badge in Johto; Tristan also ends up shining brighter than the other gym leaders as an E4 member; also the obvious shining light)

    Sedcini: Rugged Badge (pretty much straightforward here; dragons are rugged and tough, as are the people living just outside the giant sedcini tunnel?)

    Enechestra: Turquoise Badge (turquoise is a stone, and it's blue to represent the ocean that borders the city?)

    Aquapolis: Deep Dark Badge (or just the Deep Badge; refers both to deep darkness as in the Dark element, and to the deep ocean surrounding the city)

    ...in case you haven't noticed, I like double meanings. In any case, use 'em if you want 'em, ignore 'em if you don't.

    (my opinions on the other suggested badge names: Venom's too plain, would like Fantasy a lot if the Dragon-types in Topaz were more 'fantastic' - as in, to come out of fantasies, not just to be really fantastic - might like Celestial or maybe Imperial for Wolfe rather than Layla, because they happen to be names of dragon breeds from a book series I used to read, but I dunno if Celestial really fits for a gym in a city that can't even see the night sky. as for the other dark names, they do all seem a little simple and/or overdone. this is just me, but i really don't like using simple names for things if I can help it.)
    Last edited by XTS; 02-01-11 at 11:39 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by XTS View Post
    Gallea: Elixir Badge (some of the most effective medicine comes from the deadliest poisons; a master of Poison-types should be able to appreciate each, so her badge represents that)
    My favorite. The gym leader should say something like your description.

    Also, I prefer Deep Badge.

    The rest are good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XTS View Post
    Gallea: Elixir Badge (some of the most effective medicine comes from the deadliest poisons; a master of Poison-types should be able to appreciate each, so her badge represents that)
    That works quite well with the puzzle I had in mind, which is all about potions.

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    I like the sound of that, The Elixer Badge...

    Also, The Shining Badge is nice as well.
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    Took me a couple hours, but I drafted up lineups and levels for all the gym leaders. The first two are the same as they were before, and a few were just pumped up a bit.

    Froy


    Therma


    Fernando


    Jane


    Bella


    Tristan


    Wolfe


    Crys


    Gerad


    Christina


    Osiro


    Layla


    Wow, those are some crazy levels. That's what twelve gyms means though. At least I didn't give Layla a Raiger.

    All of these are open to comments/criticism of course.
    Last edited by SilentSentinel; 02-03-11 at 01:48 AM.

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    lol, nice Throwback to Whitney!

    I see you edited Christina's after we worked on hers while we still had only 6 gyms.

    I like to think of it this way...At least the Elite four will actually be, well, Elite, what with having level 80, and possibly 90, pokemon at their disposal!
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    O.O There isn't even a CHAMPION with levels as high as Layla's! The only champion that comes even close to her is the Black/White champion, Adeku, and even then, his Pokemon's levels are 75-77. How high are the levels of the Pokemon of this game's champion going to be!? Will they be in the 90's?!

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    No other game has had 12 gyms, so the levels are going to be much higher than any canon game. But you'll be levelling at the right rate anyway, so it just means that game is longer, not that more grinding is required.


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    Likely as not they will be in the 90s, yes. Even if these levels are nerfed back a bit, they will be in high 80s at least.

    We can't compare E4 levels of Canon games to ours because Canon games only have 8 gyms. Our plot has a lot of battles in it as well.

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    I was about to say "why do the Pokemon have 5 moves?" but realized the first one is the ability.

    Should format that a bit better. Otherwise good job Reli and rp - the gym info was spread out across too many threads.
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    Should format that a bit better. Otherwise good job Reli and rp - the gym info was spread out across too many threads.
    ^ this, thanks a lot guys, really!
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    Okay, I'll add "Ability:" to them when I get home. Genders as well.

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    I don't see why this shouldn't be pinned. I think there's too much gap between Froy and Therma. Right after Cranewing there's nothing to level on, unless you grind some more in Chartree or the grass near Cranewing, where things are level 7-9 ish max.

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    I have many bones to pick about the lineups.

    First off, Blue's highest level Pokemon in HGSS was his Pidgeot (at Lv. 60), and he was the last of 16 gym leaders (not counting the E4).

    As far as lineup suggestions go:
    Jane - I would suggest removing Tauros from the list; he and Zantilidae have identical speed and high Attack, so that kind of ruins what little diversity there is on the team.

    Bella - I'd downsize the levels to around 33-36 first and foremost. Otherwise, that all seems okay to me.

    Tristan - 45 and 48 are still way too high. Maybe 39 and 42, but definitely not higher than that. Anyway, since you'll be battling him again later, he doesn't need to be overly powerful at the beginning.

    Wolfe - Rocket-Orion plot or not, everything should still be 8-10 levels lower, as it's very unlikely that there will be a gigantic thing that early that will allow the trainer to gain levels that high prior to battling Wolfe. I would also suggest someone else be used instead of Arowana, since I keep hearing about Vincent (I think) using one. Perhaps Cragoyle or Gryphonic could be used instead (even though they're not Dragons, but when has any Dragon trainer not called Drake used a team purely comprised of Dragon-type Pokemon).

    Crys - Perhaps Tsunall could be added somewhere in the mix.

    Christina - I'd add Lapras and/or Iglonia somewhere on that list.

    Seriously, if it's possible to make a 16-badge game where the highest level Pokemon is only at Lv. 60 with large numbers of instances with villains, it's also possible to make a 12-badge game with the highest level Pokemon at that level. You could downgrade Layla's whole team 20 levels and her Harskrow would hit that mark. But having gym leaders with Pokemon upwards of Lv. 60 before the E4? No. Just no.
    Last edited by PokePoindexter; 02-02-11 at 09:32 PM.
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    The reason the Johto games' gym leaders are so low in leveled is because in many places you hardly battle any trainers between each other (also, the wild pokemon and non-gym trainer levels tend to stay quite low right up until the 8th badge, then never go higher than 50 or so after the E4). Johto is ordered completely differently than C/K is. While I do agree that the levels should be dropped some, maybe 5-10 levels, I like the high levels. It makes sense when you have to travel so far and likely battle many, many trainers, and it provides a better challenge. Don't change the levels too much, please.

    As for the other stuff, Arowana was meant to be the main pokemon of the Steel E4 member, so try to leave it off of Wolfe's lineup if possible. And don't forget to leave open some good Water pokemon for the Water E4, too. Tsunall I like for Crys, though; it's good for type coverage, and it's both a Rock pokemon and an ocean pokemon, so it represents both the gym and the gym city.
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    That still doesn't justify using Pokemon at such high levels. Right now, the storyline seems most similar to the story in Ruby/Sapphire (not Emerald), where there is one evil team and their antithesis, and the former attempts to do something revolutionary while the latter tries to stop them. But Wallace's highest-level Pokemon is only Lv. 43. I admit that's a bit dull level-wise, and the rest of his team wasn't that hard, but since Milotic was a potential terror back in those days, it was still capable of being a difficult match (unless you used Kyogre, you cheaters!). As long as there's some kind of difficulty amongst the various Pokemon being used, you don't need their levels to be very high.

    Maybe we can instate a sort of "policy" that if you use legendary Pokemon against gym leaders, they don't have to give you the badge.
    Last edited by PokePoindexter; 02-02-11 at 10:35 PM.
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    Or we can just, you know, not make any legendaries obtainable until after you beat all 12 gyms. >_>
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    Quote Originally Posted by PokePoindexter View Post
    That still doesn't justify using Pokemon at such high levels. Right now, the storyline seems most similar to the story in Ruby/Sapphire (not Emerald), where there is one evil team and their antithesis, and the former attempts to do something revolutionary while the latter tries to stop them. But Wallace's highest-level Pokemon is only Lv. 43. I admit that's a bit dull level-wise, and the rest of his team wasn't that hard, but since Milotic was a potential terror back in those days, it was still capable of being a difficult match (unless you used Kyogre, you cheaters!). As long as there's some kind of difficulty amongst the various Pokemon being used, you don't need their levels to be very high.

    Maybe we can instate a sort of "policy" that if you use legendary Pokemon against gym leaders, they don't have to give you the badge.
    Hoenn also only has 8 gyms. Johto's levels are so low because there are very few battles between routes, and the entire Kanto region is a cakewalk up until Red, who suddenly has levels near 80. I'd rather not have that jarring of a transition. I would also note that the highest level wilds, even on the route between Blackthorn and New Bark Town, are like 27.

    I liked that Johto had 16 badges. I hated that it was such an easy region.

    As for Arowana, I'll take it off of Wolfe and make Malistril the highest level. There aren't a lot of dragon type choices. And there are plenty of Water Types up for selection for the water E4, I don't think any of the gym leaders even have a water type. Adding Tsunall to Crys though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PokePoindexter View Post
    Maybe we can instate a sort of "policy" that if you use legendary Pokemon against gym leaders, they don't have to give you the badge.
    Let people use what ppokemon they want.

    As for the levels, they are not too unreasonable. Basically all of Kanto's gyms have similar levels in HGSS. We're going to have things along the way to raise your level.

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    Even if our game had the same amount of event-related battles as the Hoenn games (which in the current look of things we will have more), it's not unreasonable to have a gym with 80 as the final level. If you use a team of 5 pokemon and one HM slave that you don't train (that's usually how I play personally), and you've done all the quests up until Wallace, your pokemon should be around level 50. With four more gyms than Hoenn, it's expected that your pokemon are in the low 70s by the time you reach Layla. Plus, seeing as this is a fangame and not a canon game, we can implement all the sidequests we want (for instance, the quest for the Mt. Frost Shrine is sure to have some tough battles involved). If you are an avid player of hacks and fangames, you can see that they all include lots of optional quests for leveling.

    If we start by nerfing Froy by a level or two and decreasing the gap between Therma and Froy, I'd say it would be possible to decrease Layla's Harskrow by about... 7 levels. Anything more than that will bring the level gaps too close and make the game way too easy. If I wanted an easy pokemon game, I'd play the canon ones more.

    And of course, we can't say for sure how a player will progress until the finished product is actually playtested before release. When that time comes, an actual evaluation of the leveling and overall difficulty can be made.

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    I have to agree with RP on this one. We DON'T know how it will work out until it's been tried and tested. Tis why I say it would be safer to nerf it a little, and make adjustments as necessary during the testing phase. We're not basing the levels on canon games, it's a fan game for crying out loud!
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    It's quite possible to be going into the Elite 4 with a team of level 35-38s. That's what my team was for Leaf Green. (Got through with Hypnosis Gengar).

    If you adjust for the number of sidequests and other things, I doubt most people will have a team of Level 73s for Layla (especially since level exp tends to scale up faster than the exp trainers give you) but reducing 7 levels will probably make it more manageable.

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    We should either have the gym leaders at lower levels, depending on both the wild Pokemon and the previous gym leader, or we should have high-ish level wild Pokemon. One part that was really annoying in HGSS was right before I had to fight Bugsy. From what I remember, all I had was a Chikorita (maybe it was a Bayleef at that point) and a Pidgeotto (I forget exactly what it was, I know it was a flying type). I needed to level grind the Pidgeotto, but I couldn't because the surrounding Pokemon were such low levels. Let's not have anything like that in this game, it's just annoying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ImmunityBow View Post
    It's quite possible to be going into the Elite 4 with a team of level 35-38s. That's what my team was for Leaf Green. (Got through with Hypnosis Gengar).

    If you adjust for the number of sidequests and other things, I doubt most people will have a team of Level 73s for Layla (especially since level exp tends to scale up faster than the exp trainers give you) but reducing 7 levels will probably make it more manageable.
    Did you... not train at all?

    Anyway, it is likely that you will have lower level pokemon than the gym leader by that point. But let's be honest, the player has a huge advantage by being able to use any pokemon they want while the gym leader is for the most part stuck with one type or another that you can exploit. And the Elite Four are meant to be the best people around, it's only logical that they have raised their pokemon to the max and have stuff that's in the 80s. As long as we have multiple engaging sidequests (which any great fangame has many of), there shouldn't be much more grinding than canon games already have.

  36. #36
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    Double Post.

    Nerfed the levels so the highest level pokemon is 73. Also, added genders to the pokemon.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragingprimeape View Post
    As long as we have multiple engaging sidequests
    This is a must. It's one of the most important things, both for leveling and added entertainment value.

    Level 73 sounds reasonable, although I honestly have never passed level 70 except in Red (but I'm getting close in HGSS, 65-ish).

  38. #38
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    I managed to get to Lv 100 with two of my pokemon in my old Ruby version(before the data got erased by a relative D after grinding the E4 for about a half month straight.
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  39. #39
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    I don't think anyone will need to grind that much.

    Honestly, with the sheer number of cities and routes we have, there are plenty of opportunities for battling. Whoever designed the map really made use of the space to increase the playable area.

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    Does someone have a copy of the map with town/place names and route numbers? That would be helpful, seeing that I really don't know most of them.

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