Pokemon Black and White (5th generation) discussion

[BladeVap]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeUZTC7SvWY

This is MY dream team. ^_^

[SilentSentinel]

97 base speed is just short of enough, I think. What made Garchomp so broken was really the 102 speed that outclasses the HUGE 100 tier. If you don't break 100, it's not enough, if you do, it's more than enough. Ononokusu's dominance really depends on its HP or having an exploitable typing or defense.

Aaekosu seems really minimaxed, that's better than Latios even...

I guess Nintendo realized that most little kids love having 4 attack Pokemon with nearly no support, I really hope the metagame doesn't just extend upon what D/P did. (D/P did have some stall team dominance in some areas)

See, I was thinking that for a bit, but now that Ononokusu has Dragon Dance and Taunt, its slightly inferior base speed is no longer a concern, and it can circumvent potentially troublesome physical walls like Skarm. Dragon Dance/Outrage/Earthquake/Taunt is enough to run through an entire team, and Garchomp is easily OHKO'd by Outrage while Mold Breaker can erase any chance of Sand Veil hax.

[ImmunityBow]

I don't think it quite works out that way. Garchomp won't be switched in to Ononokusu, yes, but you're assuming you've already set up. What if Garchomp came out first? Came out at the same time? Then you've got a powerful dilemma on your hands. Dragon Dance and Taunt helps Ononokusu a lot but I still don't think 97 speed will be enough, especially with scarfed threats coming in on the Dragon Dance.

[Zenith]

Y'know, with all the talk about Shadow Tag Chandelar, it makes me wonder if banning certain abilities will be done more.

[SilentSentinel]

I don't think it quite works out that way. Garchomp won't be switched in to Ononokusu, yes, but you're assuming you've already set up. What if Garchomp came out first? Came out at the same time? Then you've got a powerful dilemma on your hands. Dragon Dance and Taunt helps Ononokusu a lot but I still don't think 97 speed will be enough, especially with scarfed threats coming in on the Dragon Dance.

I'm assuming that Ononokusu is already set up because of the occasions when you always bring in your set up sweeper; on things that would get owned if they stayed in, then you DD on the switch.

If Garchomp and Ononokusu come out at the same time, Garchomp will likely be running a Jolly Choice scarf set, as that is its most popular set. Adamant Scarfchomp is actually outsped by Jolly Choice Scarf Ononokusu, so it is forced to run Jolly, or always be 2HKO'd from Outrage by a scarf'd Kusu. A Choice Scarf Ononokusu is the best case scenario for Garchomp, and it will always lose from around 65ish percent of its health, leaving it open to an easy revenge kill. In this sense, Garchomp is not a true counter but merely a check that is easily finished right after. If Onokusu is a DD or Choice Bander, Chomp will take even more punishment, and Mold Breaker will stop it from having a chance to hax with Sand Veil.

If Chomp comes out first, you simply do what you did before it was moved to uber; switch a Steel type in once it gets locked into Outrage, or even better, OHKO it with a Choice Scarf Weavile Ice Punch. Garchomp has plenty of counters, and just as Garchomp won't switch into Kusu, Kusu won't come in on Garchomp.

Even if Ononokusu is not made Uber, it will be an absolute beast in the tier. If you look at the current Uber list, the magical 100 speed group is nearly nonexistent besides a few pokemon that are rarely seen like Manaphy and Mew. On the other hand, there are a ton of Base 90 pokemon and pokemon with Dragon weaknesses. Beyond this, the amount of Steel types that could conceivably wall the dragon shrinks down to basically just Forretress, who can be Taunted into oblivion, and Scizor, who lacks a super effective move and is severely dented by Earthquake. Genusekuto is probably its best counter in the uber environment.

[totodileman]

hahahaha. K...so I'm not saying anything for or against either Quinn or RP, but look here.

1st, to say...here are the sprites, normal and shiny.
http://stuff.veekun.com/bw-montage.png
http://stuff.veekun.com/bw-montage-back.png
http://stuff.veekun.com/bw-montage-shiny.png
http://stuff.veekun.com/bw-montage-back-shiny.png

now look and see, some of those are just revamps of old ones. Thats not really the big deal, but as old as it is, I'm gonna bring up "formalism". Look at Raikou and Entei's sprites. Tell me, do they look familiar ;) There are other platinum and HGSS ones. I think I found the day that mixing and formalism are on the same page. Not anything for or against here, but I'm just throwing that out.

*I like the sprites, for the most part. The back ones are kinda small, but they will be blown up a bit.

[Silver]

OMFG
gallade looks awsome!

[SilentSentinel]

Yeah, I really like some of the new sprite poses.

In the end, there are some pretty sweet combos that will be happening.

Dusclops with the evolution stone item (1.5x to both defense stats for NFE pokemon) gains what is basically 220/220 defenses, with A base HP twice as high as Shuckle and recovery in the form of Pain Split.

Jaroda can be a good late-game sweeper with Perversity Leaf Storm and Hidden Power. It's movepool is so limited that coverage will be problematic though. This is really the only method for any representation of the starters to see major competitive usage.

[Merlin]

so i must ask this question after looking at the pictures...
what the heck is with the Afro Tauros???

also what's that pokemon after Arceus???
never really saw that one before...

[BladeVap]

So on my Dream Team video on YouTube, I get this comment:


Do you know where to get shinpora? I've been looking in the desert for 3 hours now, and I still haven't found it! Can you tell me how to get it? Please tell me the time of day to catch, specific area in desert, season, and anything else needed to catch this thing. Oh! and its based on nazca.

1. I don't even own the games, and I'd BURN a Japanese copy (as in "light the cartridge on fire"), simply because of ruining the game too much. True, I got a White ROM, but I'm not playing it anymore and plan on deleting it, it's just not the same as waiting for the games. Also, I got the the first gym with great difficulty, and I got trashed. In a nutshell: If you have a Japanese copy of the games, you're a jackass who couldn't wait for the American versions. =| Sorry, but that's really how I feel.
2. How the fluck am I supposed to know how and where to find a creepy-birdy thingy when I only had four Pokemon in my White ROM (fire pig, cat, terrier dog, and hypnomunk)?
3. I KNEW Shinpora is based on Nazca...

To that commenter, I should have said the following:

SON...I AM DISAPPOINT.

[break]

I looove this game soo much im so glad you can see the full backs now!

[PokePoindexter]

Hello everyone.

Anyway, my take on the games:
Having been a longtime fan of using Defense/Support-based teams, I'm probably not going to do a lot of competitive battling if I play the game (and I'm guessing I'm one of the only members left in Pokemon-land who likes the 3rd generation above all others). But the plot of the game seems really cool, and I might give the CB world a chance. But I'm definitely not playing with an all-out offense team, so if that's what 5th generation OU is, then count me out (albeit I like that Ninetales gets Drought as an ability through the Dream World; that might make him viable in Standard, certainly more so than in the 4th gen).

[ImmunityBow]

Actually, there are some new superb defensive options now that I look at it more closely. New Dusclops, Dragon Tail and friends, and Red Card can stop sweeps, possibly. A Spikes stall team could probably get a lot of mileage out of all that new forced switch.

[SilentSentinel]

Yes, there are definitely some new weapons added to stall this time around. One thing that I'd really like to check out is how the use of Sandstorm will grow. This weather condition was powerful before, but with the additions of Sand Strength to boost power and Sand Throw to increase the speed of the usually slow Sandstorm pokemon, Sandstorm teams could become even greater threats, and Hippowdon and Tyranitar are quite difficult to take out unlike the relatively fragile Ninetales and Politoed.

[ImmunityBow]

One worrying thing is speed boost Blaziken though. Did anyone do a double take upon seeing that?

[Limkins]

Pokemon got stupid after 3rd gen tbh. All these new methods of battling and tactics is just forcing people to rethink what they're already accustomed to. Nintendo tried ti fix something that wasnt broken (ADV OU 3rd Gen) with D/P/P and failed badly cos they're shouldn't of. DP was a very defensive game bar Garchomp. Now they're trying to rectify that by making it much more offensive. Are they fucking stupid? I'll stick to Netbattle ADV thanks.

[Silver]

tadaa!!! one massive pic
http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/328/5/b/kyuremu_fullcold_form_v_2_by_pokedex_himori-d33j9cg.png
kyreum cold form
do you think its true
they did it with giratina
pokemon grey's true mascot?

[SilentSentinel]

While I believe that Kyurem will have alternate forms in the 3rd title, that was actually made for a contest on deviantart, so it's not official.

[Silver]

oh come on RP
i'm not that stupid (although you might wonder if you knew me) that i think that it is offical
i found at least thirty (ten) different kyreum alternate forms
just asking ''do you think they will make an alternate form!''

[phantom bezerker]

according to serebii, there are no CURRENT alternate forms of Kyurem. but he is one hell of a pkmn. on the other hand, who did a double take upon seeing TWO legendary trios?

[zeroality]

That's cool.

People have been using B/W stuff on Pokemon Online for several months now so nothing is new at this point for most of the community.

[Tyrannigon64]

You know how there is a third game for every duo of Pokemon games (e.g. Emerald was the third for Ruby and Sapphire, Platinum for Diamond and Pear)? Well according to Bulbapedia, there won't be a third game for Black and White.

[Cyndadile]

You know how there is a third game for every duo of Pokemon games (e.g. Emerald was the third for Ruby and Sapphire, Platinum for Diamond and Pear)? Well according to Bulbapedia, there won't be a third game for Black and White.

I didn't see that anywhere. Besides, I only trust Serebii. Bulbapedia can be edited by anyone.

[SilentSentinel]

You know how there is a third game for every duo of Pokemon games (e.g. Emerald was the third for Ruby and Sapphire, Platinum for Diamond and Pear)? Well according to Bulbapedia, there won't be a third game for Black and White.

That thing on the bulbanews feed is from an arbitrary source. It directly contradicts an earlier statement given that said that there will be a third installment. Plus, you have to look at the internal coding of the games, which Serebii kindly dissects. For instance, the God Stone item. It exists in B/W coding, but cannot be obtained and has no apparent uses. It seems obvious that this item will be used in the third game in relation to Kyremu somehow, since Reshi and Zekky also both have a stone (light and dark stones).

[Tyrannigon64]

Now that you mention it, I do remember one post saying that it is still possible for a third installment. I don't know, but it is more likely for there to be no third here than it has been for the previous ones.

[Cyndadile]

Pokemon Gray!

[zeroality]

Besides, I only trust Serebii.
For news, I guess this is alright but for anything else - you really shouldn't.

coyotte508, the lead programmer on Pokemon Online, used the Pokemon information on Serebii for some Diamond/Pearl mechanics and ended up having to fix over 100 bugs because of it.

Joe does fix them as he goes along, if he finds out about them, but his track record for posting information on Pokemon mechanics is extremely unreliable. That isn't the only instance that I know of where Serebii has had inaccurate information either.

MetalKid had numerous errors in his Pokemon Database back during RSE in his Pokemon Program because he also used Serebii.

I even recall one instance where Serebii had a move listed that Blaziken could learn that didn't even exist, and another where he said Poliwrath could get Swords Dance and Hariyama could get Shadow Ball (in RSE). So yeah don't trust Serebii for anything other than news, imo.

[Cyndadile]

I don't really use it for anything else, so it suits my purposes.

[PokePoindexter]

I just use Smogon instead (which isn't always quite as reliable, but still usable).

[zeroality]

Smogon doesn't have 5th gen on their site do they?

They are quickly falling out of relevancy from what I can see.

[SilentSentinel]

Smogon has 5th gen analyses working in process. They don't have like a full thing like they do for all the old gens though. They are too focused on what to start their tiers at, and are not concentrating on getting a good database for 5th gen knowledge, which I think will hurt them in the end. Not to mention that their battle simulator (pokelab) sucks compared to Pokemon Online. PO is really the best out there by far.

[Merlin]

yeah i've heard about the smogon stuff, haven't been there yet, as to the 3rd pokemon game i'm thinking there is going to be one....
i don't think they'll be able to get away with only two in this set, unless this game set was supposed to be a remake of an earlier game which is seriously, highly unlikely....
yes i did notice the dual legendary trio but it's not as astonishing as the D/P/P set was when they released info for like 10 or so legends in one generation...
3rd gen had 2 legendary trios but the fact that they finally made a Fire/Dragon, Electric/Dragon and Ice/Dragon trio is incredible, especially since they're the primary legednaries unlike the legendary birds from 1st gen and the legendary dogs from 2nd Gen...
has anyone been able to learn why B/W is called B/W yet?
i know there've been some rumors going around about them being connected to 1st gen but i'm pretty certain they arent all evidence considered and all...

[NyteFyre]

Probably because Zekrom and Rashiram are mostly black and white, and there is are places found only in one specific game. White Forest and Black City, or whatever it's called. That's why I believe they're called Black and White. Also, there was something about getting back to the roots of pokemon or something.

[Tyrannigon64]

A quote from Junichi Masuda from an interview for Nintendo Power, found on pg 18 of the March 2011 issue:

"We choose the titles to express the themes of each game. Like, diamonds are the hardest substance in the world, so that fit the theme of "ultimateness" in Pokemon Diamond and Pearl. This time we're pursuing a theme of "polarity," things that are defined by their opposition to each other. Take, for example, angles and demons, or light and shadow-if one didn't exist, the other would lose all meaning. "White" is a blank slate with potential to become anything, while "black" is complete and unchanging. So our intention actually wasn't to return to the basics, but to evoke that particular theme."

Does that answer your question?

[SilentSentinel]

Hmm, that's interesting. For the longest time I always thought that the idea behind it was focused on the fact that they returned to basic colors, the first time since Gen I (It's been precious metals ever since the original RBY days, Black and White return to this). There are certainly some things that bring the series back to basics though, like the fact that no returning pokemon are found pre-national dex.

[zeroality]

There are certainly some things that bring the series back to basics though, like the fact that no returning pokemon are found pre-national dex.
A bit unrelated but VGC 2011 also bans all pre-5th gen Pokemon.

IPL told me his team and barring hax, I think he has a great chance to win it all. He's using stuff that will make people rage hard. I hope he does win so it forces Gamefreak to rethink certain things when it comes to stuff in competitive Pokemon.

[ImmunityBow]

I don't think Gamefreak really cares about competitive Pokemon.

It's just ridiculous to balance a game with nearly 600 different basic elements, not to mention the variants of all of them. It's not really worth their time or money. Advanced gen was where it was manageable, and it's way beyond that now. All they can hope to do is introduce a new competitive environment (which it seems they have done well, even though everything looks so broken) and let the players sort it out with ban lists and metagame.

[XTS]

Truthfully, I could absolutely picture someone going up to a pokemon creator and asking "do you realize how broken the 5th Gen metagame is on the battle sims," and have the creator reply, "there are battle sims?"

...I might EV/IV train some legendaries just for the sake of it, in case by some fluke I'm able to get to the nearest qualifying thingy for the VGC.

[ImmunityBow]

From what I understand NoA is aware of Smogon, but doesn't really care.

[SilentSentinel]

If they cared about competitive battling, they probably wouldn't have made the metagame so blisteringly fast paced. Besides like... Ferrothorn and Jellicent there aren't many truely defensive pokemon. The evolution stone remedies this to an extent, but those pokemon suffer greatly without lefties.

In 4th gen, there was no way to counter everything, but at least you could cope with most things. Now, there's always at least 3 or 4 pokemon that will completely ruin you. It's just impossible to have a way to beat everything with only 6 pokemon. Plus, conventional boosting takes a major hit with Ditto running around.

Some of the pokemon on the current UU list astound me. Azelf? the Deoxys forms? Terakion?

That's why I've been focusing on improving my play in Ubers recently. OU is basically a total crapshoot, while Ubers is pretty similar to 4th gen.

[zeroality]

Yeah, the problem with OU is that banlists are still being formulated. Same for UU.

Suspect testing, discussion, and ultimately voting. It's a pain, but we're working on a new voting system/formula at PO that should improve things.

(IE: Shadow Tag Shandera/Chandelure won't be voted Dream World OU again, I can pretty much guarantee you that)

I know NoA was aware of NetBattle. I can't imagine that they'd be ignorant of Pokemon Online either, considering that the combined servers tend to have over 1,000 players during peak hours.

Our PO server frequently caps out at the ~500 player limit. coyotte is still working on a way to raise the limit, something to do with a socket issue.

Smogon is also working on banlists (separately from PO... I know - it's not ideal but what can we do?) and they have recently banned Drizzle + Swift Swim. You can use one or the other but not both in conjunction.

[SilentSentinel]

Well, it's now upon us. I picked up Black this morning. The game is beautiful, but I'm a bit miffed that the Toggle Running feature from HG/SS was removed.

[Cyndadile]

Pokemon White!

What is th C-gear/global link supposed to be for?

[PokePoindexter]

If I can choose between which game I get (if I get either), I'd probably pick White, just because I can get Reuniclus in that game (my favorite BW Poke, and not just because of his OU potential).

[Cyndadile]

So, I'm in pinwheel forest right now, and I'm up against a Throh and a Timburr. They just killed my Blitzle and Roggenrola in the same turn. I tried switching my Lillipup in, and then my Oshawott. I proceeded to spend 15 minutes trying to figure out why it wouldn't let me choose my 2nd pokemon before coming here to rant. While I was typing this (I'm a slow typer and am distracted easily), I realized that I needed to choose Blitz or Roggen (to tell it which to replace with Lillipup), instead of choosing my 2nd pokemon. I feel somewhat inadequate.

[XTS]

The same thing happened to me against a couple of wilds outside the Giant Chasm...I dunno if it took me 15 minutes, but I did my fair share of raging over it.

But yeah, Black is incredible. Great graphics, of course great pokemon, and the sort of plot you'd expect from a top-notch fangame - the people are actually that, people, not just characters filling a role, but which get out and try to make a difference, have their own opinions, etc. On both small scale and large scale, it's a huge improvement over 4th Gen (and, though it begrudges me to admit it, 3rd Gen), and I can't wait to buy White, too, so I can start playing through it all over again.

[Cyndadile]

My only problem is that, so far, there has been ONE thing to use an HM on. And, there is a doctor/nurse at the start of almost every route. But other than that, its great. One of my friends, though, was ranting because he finished it on monday.

I'm quite impressed with the battle graphics; the movement of the sprites and the panning/zooming of the camera seems very smooth.

I'm at the city after route 4 right now.

[zeroality]

Pokemon White!

What is th C-gear/global link supposed to be for?
Dunno if this is the same thing but someone wrote a guide to the Entralink on PO Forums (http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/showthread.php?5234-Guide-to-the-Entralink). I would simply quote but it's relatively long so linking instead.

[Cyndadile]

Thanks, that helps too.

[Reliability]

I've finished the game once and immediately started over. Also, my Pokemon caught Pokerus today.

[Cyndadile]

Also, my Pokemon caught Pokerus today.

If I remember correctly, that's good for stats? If so, try to spread it.

[Reliability]

Already boxed a Pokemon that caught it. I don't know if you can reinfect after they've healed, but that's all I can really do.

Yes, it's like Macho Brace but without the nerf to speed and taking up the item slot.

[XTS]

I've caught PokeRus in a couple different Emerald runs, plus a SoulSilver run, plus most stuff I got off the Gen IV GTS was given PokeRus, so once I transfer a couple of those still infected from my box to Black, I'll be able to infect everything else at will....that might help when I start doing runs through White, I can give PokeRus to the early-game team; a lot of stuff early on gives out either Attack or Speed EVs....

[zeroality]

Isn't Pokerus rarer than finding a shiny?

[Reliability]

It's comparable rarity.

[BladeVap]

It IS rarer, but still not the rarest thing in Pokemon...I believe that would be the Mirage Island in RSE...

[SilentSentinel]

Huh, I've seen Mirage Island three seperate times. Only ever got pokerus once on Crystal though.

[XTS]

Run into five shinies, I believe (only 2 of which I managed to catch and hold onto), but never seen Mirage Island - though to be fair, I didn't really check that often, so whatever.

[PokePoindexter]

Only time any of my Pokemon have had PKRS was in my...eighth or ninth playthrough of Pokemon Emerald. And after I'd already EV trained the Pokemon I was going to use on my team.

I think I'll wait on buying either Black or White until I finish this school year - only a month left. Maybe Marriland will have completed his Video series of it by that time too.

[NyteFyre]

I think the event like thing with the least chance of happening is if you win one of the in game lottery, completely, and get a free Masterball.