Returning Pokemon: Sprites

[ImmunityBow]

So, let's discuss how we're going to handle the returning Pokemon.

As we know, we need 80x80 sprites. The problem is that some of the sprites are more popular in HGSS, some in D/P, some in Platinum. So how will we do this? There are a few options:

1. Only use Platinum sprites
2. Only use HGSS sprites
3. Make our own
4. Mix and match

It boils down to how professional we want to be, I guess: Making our own is definitely the most professional, followed by using HGSS sprites. Mixing and matching is highly unprofessional, but has the added advantage of using the sprites that the fans want, and that's what Topaz is: a fan game made by the fans for the fans. So we shouldn't be forced to use a sprite that everyone hates if there's a perfectly suitable same-sized sprite from another game.

Opinions?

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

3 and 4 why not.

[Quinn]

I'm for 3 and 4. Though this isn't my personal project I was talking about, I can get them 80 by 80, learn how to center, and make more polls. (Though it might be better if it was a subfolder in the graphics for this)

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

I can just picture the splices submitted, just taking the good parts (and in some novice cases managing to make it look bad). But then, that's not neccessarily bad.

[Quinn]

I'm not so sure with splices. If it was original mostly with a couple parts, thats something else.
This all being said, I'm still for the "not professional" mix.

[SilentSentinel]

I'd rather just have HG/SS ones. It's professional enough and won't take forever. Taking the time to create both front and backsprites will take a long time, and Badara has promised 6 weeks of full time coding, which we don't want to waste. It could be the difference between getting the demo out this summer and having it take longer.

[Quinn]

I'm for just having the HGSS, Platinum, and Diamond/Pearl going on. I could start getting them ready tonight, and go wild tommorow with polls.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

I'm for just having the HGSS, Platinum, and Diamond/Pearl going on. I could start getting them ready tonight, and go wild tommorow with polls.

If that's going to be the case I still say the ones appearing in Topaz should have new images (it's a new game). Of course, they don't need it for the demo but...

[Quinn]

If people are for it, and if you have time, you wanna help? There are the sprite sheets all over the web, I'm tryin to find em, when I do, I'm gonna start that. If you wanna get DP's, I can get platinums and HG SS.
Edit Got HG SS, now getting platinum

[SilentSentinel]

I still say that it should just be all HG/SS, since even doing this will take time. However, if we decide to go the unprofessional route and mix, here's a better way to do it:


Okay, I don't want 80000000000 polls again. What we do is post one thread with the sprites form DP, Plat, and HG/SS for our returners. Then people can browse them and C&P this list:

Sandshrew
Sandslash
Spoink
Grumpig
Pineco
Forretress
Mankey
Primeape
Mareep
Flaafy
Ampharos
Tauros
Miltank
Drowzee
Hypno
Cleffa
Clefairy
Clefable
Growlithe
Arcanine
Vulpix
Ninetales
Whismur
Loudred
Exploud
Murkrow
Skarmory
Duskull
Dusclops
Venonat
Venomoth
Grimer
Muk
Koffing
Weezing
Zangoose
Seviper
Meowth
Persian
Lotad
Lombre
Ludicolo
Yanma
Slowpoke
Slowbro
Slowking
Remoraid
Octillery
Smeargle
Dunsparce
Absol
Corphish
Crawdaunt
Ditto
Togepi
Togetic
Eevee
Vaporeon
Jolteon
Flareon
Espeon
Umbreon
Misdreavus
Qwilfish
Tangela
Tropius
Rhyhorn
Rhydon
Torkoal
Scyther
Scizor
Lapras
Stantler
Cacnea
Cacturne
Trapinch
Vibrava
Flygon
Staryu
Starmie
Corsola
Chinchou
Lanturn
Relicanth
Jirachi

That should be all of them. The list must be put into a spoiler by the person voting to save space or it doesn't count. Each sprite should be defaulted as HG/SS, since those are the most recent additions and therefore the most professional. Then if the person has a complaint about an HG/SS sprite or like a Platinum one better, they can put (Plat) or (DP) next to the pokemon. It takes a little longer to vote than a poll, but it also ensures that people will actually look at every sprite for themselves before they actually judge.

We aren't going to make everyone happy no matter we do, so I don't see the point of mixing and matching. I merely posted this so there aren't a bunch of polls.

[Cyndadile]

I don't think we will get 382 front and back sprties in the next year even. I think we should mix and match. Then we could see what we liked best.

[Quinn]

I just finished the platinums as well. I like your idea RP, but the only thing that gets me is all the counting. If there is a subcategory with the sprites in 800000 different polls, then they will have the chance for each. Some might not get viewed, so they are bumped. All together, it would take around 5 days, and the news could possibly be put on the site to get better viewing chances.
By the way, backsprites are all the same from DP, to HG SS. (Might be some I might have missed that have a diff, but still, they are the same. See for yourself
http://sfc.pokefans.net/platinum.php?id=11
Should I even do DP from platinum sincee MOSTLY just 4th gen changed.

[SilentSentinel]

What counting? This is why we should pick one and stick to it...

[Quinn]

(I dont wanna sound arguing)
What I mean is if we pick one, and we get, say 20 people who do that, we open each one up, and have to tally, "Okay, he wants HG SS, he wants Platinum and at the end figure it out, rather if we had the many polls, when the polls are done in say, a week, the counting is already done.

[SilentSentinel]

It isn't like that at all if you set HG/SS as default. People will most likely only have problems with a few HG/SS sprites, so counting really is a non-issue.

[Quinn]

I'm not gonna lie, I think some of HG SS's suck. There are some awesome ones, but some of them blow. If I could just get a subfolder, I could have these all up tommorow. Since I use library Wi-Fi I would have to wait till I could go down, (anywhere from 10 am-1pm WST)
I've got them all saved now, so all I would have to do is crop em apart, resize em, and get ready.

EDIT: I just remembered, I think I am wrong about backsprites. Didn't the become more "lively" from platinum up? I'll make sure, and if there is difference, they will also be up.
Another thing I remembered is dex entries. There ARE alot of entries, one for each "returning". It might make life tougher on me to make the polls, but more easier for everyone else.

[SilentSentinel]

People will most likely only have problems with a few HG/SS sprites, so counting really is a non-issue.


I'm not gonna lie, I think some of HG SS's suck. There are some awesome ones, but some of them blow.

That's the point. You can say which ones you want to be different in the thread.

[Quinn]

Read my edit. It kinda talks about that.
Since I cant work on these while I'm online, I'm gonna log off Soon

[SilentSentinel]

We aren't going to poll dex entries. The current format is fine as is.

[Quinn]

I wasn't talkin bout dex entries too much. I was just giving an example. That being said, your idea has been chosen (of course ;) )but with a little edit. I'm making 4 sheets tonight. 2 for platinuum and 2 for HG SS (cause the frames) from that, people will fill out that spoiler thingy you used. (Either you or IB, PM me how to do that) There wont be a "default" but instead it just have blank spaces. They will fill it out and post it. Though it will be hell to count, since your idea has been chosen, I have nothing against it. Get ready for some fun tommorow.

[SilentSentinel]

PM me the sheets when you get them and I'll post it, or I'll just edit yours with the rules if a prior engagement does not prevent me from doing so. I'll take care of the counting.

[Quinn]

awesome. We can tag team this. (work with the person that got me started here :D :D:D)

[zeroality]

Yeah, I don't want polls on this unless it's to poll between HG/SS or Platinum sprites.

I'd rather not mix and match because that means we'd have to find a way to make the decision on which sprite to use for which Pokemon, and that probably means more polls.

After seeing how long the shiny Pokemon are going to take via polls, I am definitely against another large-scale polling project. It's not going to happen.

I'm also against making the sprites. Progress needs to speed up, not slow down.

[SilentSentinel]

...which is why I'd like to stick with all HG/SS sprites. Let's not prolong everything because some people don't like a couple of sprites. We'll never make everyone happy, so we may as well be practical about this.

If Pinsir was in this game I might say something different. It's so damn ugly.

[zeroality]

HG/SS sprites sound good to me.

[Reliability]

Screw all of this mix and matching business and just pick one set of sprites. We have a lot to do without complicating all of the simple things.

[Quinn]

I'm finally here. I got them all done. I'm a bit late (about 40 over here), but I got them all done.

[zeroality]

I'm finally here. I got them all done. I'm a bit late (about 40 over here), but I got them all done.
Got what done?

[ImmunityBow]

A sheet of the sprites side by side for comparison. I've already spoken to him at length about this.

[Cranky Guy]

Mix and match is good.

[Quinn]

I'm alot more calm now (I was alot more steaming last time, when I uploaded them), so as much as I would love to have the mix and match ballad thingy. The one thing that is kinda messed with choosing one sprite thing like HG SS, is there is now 2 frames (as seen in the sheets). For the most part (especially with tauros), the second is actually alot better than the 1st.
Yet again, I'm for mix and match, but thats just me.

[NyteFyre]

Man, a lot can happen when you go out for a few hours.

I have an idea...How about we use all HG/SS Sprites, just first frame, and the ones that don't look all that great, a.k.a. Jolteon, we can use the Platinum sprites of. That sound ok?

[darrenalilim]

I think we/you guys should do #3 and do reposes.

[zeroality]

I would rather not mix and match because that leaves it wide open to subjective opinions.

Rather than debate the decision, I'm going to make one right now. We are going to use the HG/SS sprites, 2nd frame. No exceptions. If you could get that ready and posted, that'd be great. Thanks.

I think we/you guys should do #3 and do reposes.
As much as I would love to do this (make our own), it just isn't realistic. Our programmer gets his summer break on June 16th and only has 6 weeks to dedicate towards coding the demo. We simply cannot get it done by then. It took years to get the custom sprites for Topaz finalized.

We are going with HG/SS sprites, 2nd frame. No exceptions.

[darrenalilim]

I would rather not mix and match because that leaves it wide open to subjective opinions.

Rather than debate the decision, I'm going to make one right now. We are going to use the HG/SS sprites, 2nd frame. No exceptions. If you could get that ready and posted, that'd be great. Thanks.

As much as I would love to do this (make our own), it just isn't realistic. Our programmer gets his summer break on June 16th and only has 6 weeks to dedicate towards coding the demo. We simply cannot get it done by then. It took years to get the custom sprites for Topaz finalized.

We are going with HG/SS sprites, 2nd frame. No exceptions.

Kay, sorreh D:

[NyteFyre]

All right, though i still don't like the HG/SS Jolteon sprite, first and second frame.

[Quinn]

alright, though some of the shading is off and kinda messed up, like Rhyhorn and Rhydon. If your doing that though, go with mostly 2nd frame with backs too. If you dont, make the exception to Tauros!
If you leave it to me though instead, I would have it up tommorow. I already had the design all ready for the ballad. Saved on my computer. Had the sprite sheets made and everything. It would be no hassle on you, and when the winners were decided (in about 5 days), I could find the shinies to go with them as well and have them 2 you the next day, no doubt. But if your so "dead" set on 2nd frame, then I guess I can have no influence.

[zeroality]

We are going with HG/SS sprites, 2nd frame.
If the administration feels it is necessary to replace a sprite then we will make that determination - not a singular user, and we don't have the time for community polls on the matter. So if you are going to do it, then please give us the HG/SS sprites, 2nd frame. Thanks.

[Quinn]

but it isn't only me. There are a decent amount of people who are/were for it. Some of HGSS, like I said, are horribly shaded.

[SilentSentinel]

Some of us are also for professionalism.

[Quinn]

yah. But isn't this a fan game?
*Surprised you said that, with the voting style you wanted to do.

[SilentSentinel]

Yes, this is a fan game. But there are other fan games too. Just look around on pokecommunity or something, and you'll see projects similar to this one. Ours stands out because of our well done sprites and such, but we have to keep a professional image if we want people to pay more attention to our game. Using the most up to date canon sprites is the best way to stay as professional as possible, which is why I support zero's administrative decision.

[Quinn]

alright, I know I can't do anything against it, so I'll shut up now.

[Reliability]

It isn't that it's not a good idea. It just isn't worth it to go through this process. Also, random Platinum sprites will just throw everything off.

For continuity's sake, it's also the best option.

[Quinn]

I actually think most platinum sprites were better. If anything, we should have stuck with them, with of course the tauros exception.
Also, I dont know if my eyes deceived me, but it looks like platinum's entei in 5th gen.

[SilentSentinel]

That's just a placeholder. They don't have an animated 5th gen sprite yet, so they used the platinum entei to show off the Zororark event. Anyway, I don't think this is needs to be discussed more. Admin decision > all.

[ImmunityBow]

I hope the impression that admin decision > all doesn't last. Topaz is by and large a democratic process and I have done my utmost to make everything based off of community voting, which is why I put this up here in the first place. I agree that some times the line has to be laid down to stop bickering and such, and that some times we do stuff behind the scenes, but I don't want any of the non staff/contributors to feel like they can't do anything.

What I don't understand is what Quinn means by there being 2 frames. If he means male and female then we'd be using both anyway. HGSS Jolt does look pretty awful, I must admit.

[SilentSentinel]

He's talking about the sprite animation. The 2nd frame is the one that is actually shown most of the time, so I say we use all those.

[Quinn]

I'm still for my Mix and match, and I'm not changing my mind bout that. Though I'm only a "new" contributor and dont have much power, I'm still for that. Not that that really matters though...

[zeroality]

Deleted my previous post because I changed my mind. After more carefully reading rp's suggestion (http://www.pokemontopaz.net/forums/showthread.php?625-Returning-Pokemon-Sprites&p=6948&viewfull=1#post6948) on how to do it, I think that's the best way to go about it.

IB is right about the fact that we've always been democratic about nearly every aspect of Topaz. The method that rp suggested won't take nearly as long as individual polls, so let's go for it - if that's ok with you IB?

(Let's wait for IB to give his approval before we do anything.)

[Quinn]

He's talking about the sprite animation. The 2nd frame is the one that is actually shown most of the time, so I say we use all those.

Just as a quick statement, it is the 1st that is the main sprite. The one after the animation is done. The second IS the animation.
Example : 1st frame http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/sprites/plmfa/6.png 2nd frame: http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/sprites/plmfb/6.png

[SilentSentinel]

Oh, okay. I just assumed that 2nd was the resting pose.

[ImmunityBow]

Taking a voting tally, ignoring all votes for 3 because we simply don't have the time or manpower to do it,

Option 2: II
Option 4: IIII

6 votes isn't really very much, especially since I didn't count zero's vote and if both he and I vote option 2 then it's a tie. Since this is a pretty big issue, could we have some more votes?

[Quinn]

whats the options?

[NyteFyre]

I say we do option 4. If not, could you at least replace the Jolteon Sprite? The HG/SS one it terrible.

[Quinn]

I'm guessing option 4 is a bit of mix? If so, thats my vote. (that should be kinda obvious though, after the time I used toward it. {Only RP, IB, and Zero know that number...} )

[Reliability]

I'm pretty sure my vote has been counted, but I vote 2 just to clarify.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

^Same here

[Quinn]

If the professional look wins, I still suggest going with platinum.
Though I've think I've made myself obvious I'm for the mix & match one.

[AndyIsABeast]

We should do 1 & 2. If we do 3 & 4, It might take longer and the real new game will come out and we'll have to deal with that

[Quinn]

If the mix and match one wins, I'm ready. I "re"finished getting ready. thats only if so though.

[SilentSentinel]

I guess I'll clarify my vote if it's not obvious.

I'm voting for 2 for two reason. 1) I like the idea of consistency and professionalism within the game. 2) No matter what mix we do of sprites if we go that route, there will ALWAYS be people who won't like some of our sprite choices. Whether it's "hey why did you use the D/P Growlithe?" or "hey, you guys used HG/SS Jolteon! That sprite sucks!" we will never make everyone happy. So we may as well be uniform since not everyone will approve of our decisions anyway.

[Quinn]

DP sprites wouldn't even be up for consideration. 1, they are too old, and 2, it would have been just more time. I do see your point too, but yah, in all the generations, there are sprites that are messed up, like HGSS's rhyhorn line.
Randomly, I was B-Sing last night, doin animations, and platinums 2nd frame eevee was AWESOME with chloreon. I was actually really surprised.

[SilentSentinel]

you posted twice, just so ya know. Also, DP sprites wouldn't even be up for consideration. 1, they are too old, and 2, it would have been just more time. I do see your point too, but yah, in all the generations, there are sprites that are messed up, like HGSS's rhyhorn line.
Randomly, I was B-Sing last night, doin animations, and platinums 2nd frame eevee was AWESOME with chloreon. I was actually really surprised.

Lies, my second post was an optical illusion. Also, I know D/P isn't up, it's just an example, plus not every sprite got a Platinum upgrade, so we'll have to use some D/P if we go with Plat. With the thing about how some sprites are bad in every gen, that kind of works into my earlier point. Not everyone is gonna be happy no matter what. Nyte doesn't like HG/SS Jolteon, you don't like HG/SS Rhyhorn. I happen to like HG/SS Scyther and Rhyhorn, while brother actually like Jolteon somehow, which I know a lot of people hate, so those will probably end up Plat if we vote. See how you can't please everyone? Everyone will probably be in the minority in at least one sprite.

[NyteFyre]

I'm really starting to see what you mean, RP. If anything, i would just use the Platinum ones, since all of them were fine, i believe.

[SilentSentinel]

I'd also like to throw out that for later patches, we would have to decide for every returner which sprite we want to use, further delaying the process.

[Quinn]

kinda goes with your stuff, we'll piss people off with whatever choise we choose, so we sould go with one....but if we are gonna piss some off no-matter what, shouldn't we use the ones that we like. The "perfect" ones?
As an edit...
with the style that you created, with my quick twist, I could get it done in a week. Also, the twist allows both sides choose. If your like me, and you want mix and match, you vote for those, but if your like you (RP) and want one sprite sheet, you just post that in there and thats that. The thing is though, we are killing time as we speak. Those 6 weeks will go by fast, and if we dont use them efficiantly, we wont have a summer demo. While the voting is going on, Badara could be coding something else. And thats just 1 week, then I get the winners all packaged with a pretty ribbon, and send em off. There will be multi tasking going on. While he's coding something, we get the next stuff ready. Sitting around isn't gonna put us forward. If I can get the access, Our style should work fast and easy. Its ready whenever ya'll are. Its on my computer, all I need to do is copy and paste it. (I've even got my ballad done) It doesn't take too long to do either.

[SilentSentinel]

I think you are taking my reasoning out of context. Going with all from one group is better by going with the theory that someone will always be miffed because we will at least keep the professional image. Better to have one than niether.

[Quinn]

well simply said, yet again I saw, I dont wanna get on your badside. We each have our opinions and I know neither of us are changing that. Yet again I say (from my edit) that the voting style twist actually goes for both sides. You want one sheet, you go for one sheet, you want mix, you go for it. I would send you the file, but my connection sucks right now.

[SilentSentinel]

Meh, w/e. Niether of us are going to change our minds and we will not move forward either way until a clear decision is made, so let's wait for others to weigh in.

[Quinn]

my point exactly.

[ImmunityBow]

From what I see the vote is even more even than before. From what I can tell Platinum sprites draw a lot less controversy than HG/SS, for what it's worth.

[SilentSentinel]

I could go for Platinum. As long as they are all the same I'm fine with it.

[Reliability]

I could go for Platinum. As long as they are all the same I'm fine with it.
Yes.

[NyteFyre]

I think i suggested this earlier. Anyway, Platinum sprites for the win.

[Quinn]

I will admit, though, yet again, not the biggest fan of some platinums, I'm for that. THAT DOESN'T MEAN I'M NOT FOR MIX AND MATCH. But if the formality style wins...that should be the sheet. Though, just wondering....if we even do choose that...which frame?
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/5770/platinumframe1.png
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/735/platinumframe2.png
I'm for frame 2.
This all being said. I'm only saying this if the formal look wins. I AM STILL FOR MIX AND MATCH.
(If the formal is confirmed, there might be some possible recolors though, like stantler, and mareep.)

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

I'm for frame #2 as well, professional and as-original-as-can-be

[SilentSentinel]

I'm for frame 1 personally. You guys can see with the charizard up top that the second frame is the animation, so frame one is the resting pose that is mostly seen. The second frame isn't very good for some of them since they were ment to only be displayed for a short time. Zangoose is a prime example, as it covers its face during the second frame.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

So there's one or two (literally, i can only count 2) errors with the faces, still easy to fix and a cheap price for originality and (i refuse to say professionalism now) Authenticism

[zeroality]

I'm for using Platinum sprites. I think Frame 1 is the better choice since some of the poses are a little awkward in Frame 2 and aren't really suited to be used as static sprites. They're only shown for a few seconds, and are designed that way.

[Quinn]

Wanna make a deal? One way or another, IB wants me now to post the voting, but I could make a deal. We like platinum right? They are in the same game for formality, but there are some hot looking 1st and 2nd. Make a more balanced voting.

[SilentSentinel]

Alright, I can go for that. Between 1st and 2nd frame then.

[Quinn]

done deal.