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Thread: Revamp: Koffing -> Weezing

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    Default Revamp: Koffing -> Weezing

    What CAN be revamped:
    - Movesets (TMs and levelsets) - For TMs, please post the existing list even if you're making no changes, it makes my job much easier.
    - Abilities
    - Egg Moves (POST WITH FATHERS, PLEASE)

    What CANNOT be revamped:
    - Base stats

    We're doing Koffing -> Weezing in this topic.
    This one is, according to IB, from scratch.

    On the bench: I don't know, something that we haven't done yet.

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    Levitate should stay on the line as the only ability.

    I'm not seeing Koffing/Weezing getting Venom Strike despite being poison; it doesn't really seem like it could do that. On the other hand, Weezing actually does have a surprisingly solid movepool, with moves such as Fire Blast, Thunderbolt, and Shadow Ball all being TMs. Perhaps Umbrage could make its way in as a TM?

    Just some preliminary thoughts to consider.

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    I'm supporting them not getting venom strike. It's most definately a fang move (or at the very least physical), whereas Koffing/Weezing seems more special-inclined.

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    Honestly, I think that their movesets should pretty much be the same as firered and leafgreen. I mean, they're well known for the gas attacks and blowing up.
    However, Sacrifice might fit in somewhere, since the line does seem to enjoy killing itself.

    I think Umbrage would work as a TM, too.

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    Sacrifice seems more... selfless than Koffing seems. Compare Al Quieda (sp?) and Jesus. :P

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    I think Afterburn makes sense on them, and is woefully underused if I remember correctly. So does Burnout for an interesting alternative playstyle, and Cherry Bomb. Overload could be okay too, considering that if I remember correctly they get a lot of fire and electric moves by TM.

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    Personally, I've seen koffing as misunderstood. Who's to say it couldn't use sacrifice? Just because it's poisonous doesn't mean it's evil, and totally not selfless.
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    I could see Afterburn and maybe Burnout, but could you explain your reasoning for Cherry Bomb? I wouldn't have considered it.

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    It explodes, and it's round, and Cherry Bombs are generally prankster things. Only part that doesn't fit is the move type, and since when has that been an issue?
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    And that it might seed the opponent, indicating a grass-type affinity?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Temple Gaurdian View Post
    And that it might seed the opponent, indicating a grass-type affinity?
    This. I can't really imagine Koffing shooting a bunch of seeds out of its pores and setting down roots to absorb energy from them.

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    Why not? You can imagine it shooting a Sludge Bomb right? Shooting a Cherry Bomb is more of a natural extension than Raticate getting Thunderbolt.

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    Well, I've always just thought Koffing was basically a flying ball of muck in a purple sack. With gas problems. Seeds never really factored into the equation. I think it's resonable for Koffing to be able to use muck and gas attacks. Through its gas situation, I can appreciate its ability to explode; there are plenty of explosive gases, if it has some way to ignite them. If we assume that it does have an ignition source, I can understand an ability to use fire attacks. The gas and ignition would work in much the same way as a regular flamethrower.
    On the other hand, Koffing is a vile creature. It's full of all sorts of nasty toxic stuff. I would imaging that makes its body an inhospitable place for any living organism, including a seed.

    I'm not going to deny that Thunderbolt seems unnatural on Raticate, but we're not here to talk about The Pokemon Company's choices. Besides, Raticate isn't even in Topaz, so we don't need to debate its moveset (yet). However, we do need to discuss electric moves on Koffing's TM list, which doesn't exactly seem natural to me.

    Lets try 140 characters or less:
    I think seeds would die inside Koffing, a sludge and gas pokemon, and The Pokemon Company has some issues in their movesets.

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    That. Except that most electric attacks can be chalked up to a build-up of static between gases (which would also be an ignition factor).

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    Weezing gets Thunderbolt. Just saying. How is that more of an extension than Cherry bomb?

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    Static electric charges building up inside a dense gas cloud vs. an organic substance surviving in said highly toxic gas cloud? Yeah, that's not much of an extension is it? :P

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    I'd kind of like to hear an argument for why he SHOULD get Cherry Bomb, not why Cherry Bomb isn't as bad as some other things. I mean, right now the argument for it is like "well, the guy's a murderer, so he might as well rob banks, too." I would rather remove both unappealing traits than add another poor trait. If electric attacks are an issue, we can remove them.
    I realize that we seem to be outnumbered 3-2, but I would like to at least see an explaination for how Cherry Bomb fits.

  18. #18
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    To me,
    Koffing and Weezing feel very well thought out. They are balls of dense, toxic gases. Naturally they can use gas-based moves. The fact they are gaseous means that they can build static electricity (which causes thunder (and thunderbolts)). Expanding on their highly volatile nature, it makes sense that they can learn explosion and self-destruct, but also some flame-based moves, using the gases like fuel for a flamethrower.
    However, to me at least, that does not indicate "It's a flame move, it'd be able to use it" or thinking along those lines. For example, Overload, just where is this sudden internal charge of electricity coming from? For Koffing or Weezing to build up such an intense charge internally, they'd likely to have exploded once or twice at least. Afterburn I'm unsure of, how exactly would Koffing or Weezing produce time-delayed embers? On the one hand passing volatile gases over embers would cuase them to erupt. On the other hand how does that work independantly of the pokemon, and where would the embers come from anyway?

    So yes, please please can we have some thought out reasoning behind this, please?

    On a more positive note, I agree on Burnout. The more damage it takes the more likely it is to leak said volatile gases, increasing the attack's power.

    Edit: Fireball? Seems a pretty obvious one.
    Last edited by Black Temple Gaurdian; 07-10-12 at 04:36 PM.

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    Okay, a couple of things:

    1. I'd rather not have the entire line go entirely unchanged from FR/LG. I mean, this is Topaz. We want to show off Topaz moves and abilities.
    2. Pokemon has shown time and time again that physics doesn't work in a traditional way. How Pokemon works is (usually) either in tangible connections that make sense on some level (not necessarily logically) or because of tradition. This is why all Normal-types get massive special movepools, because traditionally, they have.
    3. Koffing/Weezing look like they could shoot cherry-sized projectiles from their spouts, and that they could internally even create the mixture of chemicals required to make them explosive. Hence Cherry Bomb. Competitively, it gives the line access to a move type they have never had access to before in a way that makes sense, and would probably be one of the more exciting additions to their moveset.
    4. For Afterburn, I'd like to think that after Koffing/Weezing shoots a large amount of corrosive gas onto you, you'd feel a burn afterward.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImmunityBow View Post
    1. I'd rather not have the entire line go entirely unchanged from FR/LG. I mean, this is Topaz. We want to show off Topaz moves and abilities.
    Of course, but we still need to choose a reasonable moveset. You wouldn't give a Mudkip Dive Bomb, would you? (Speaking of Dive Bomb, I wish that we could give Koffing some flying moves. He does levitate, after all. But there aren't a lot of flying TMs that would fit)
    Quote Originally Posted by ImmunityBow View Post
    2. Pokemon has shown time and time again that physics doesn't work in a traditional way. How Pokemon works is (usually) either in tangible connections that make sense on some level (not necessarily logically) or because of tradition. This is why all Normal-types get massive special movepools, because traditionally, they have.
    3. Koffing/Weezing look like they could shoot cherry-sized projectiles from their spouts, and that they could internally even create the mixture of chemicals required to make them explosive. Hence Cherry Bomb. Competitively, it gives the line access to a move type they have never had access to before in a way that makes sense, and would probably be one of the more exciting additions to their moveset.
    I guess this is a pretty good explaination. It still doesn't really explain how it creates the actual Cherry/seed pod part, but I suppose it's not impossible. If we're trying to be too realistic, we end up with a bunch of normal cats, dogs, and birds running around biting each other.
    Besides, I don't think anyone's really going to give in on the topic, and it's a lot easier just to not use the TM if people don't like it.

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    One thing I have been thinking about: Who's to say that all pokemon using a move us it in exactly the same way? They may not neccessarily be grass seed pods, but cherry sized pods of a leeching poison, that, upon contact, explode and cover the opponent in a leeching poison.

    What I'm trying to say is that you've made very reasonable ways to create fire and explosions and electricity, but you haven't tried ways to explain how something akin to a cherry bomb could be created in a posion gas ball.
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    While I agree with your overall arguement, Koffing and Weezing are two Pokemon that do have plausable science behind it, and I'd like to keep it that way. Plus whilst there is plausible reason for it to shoot explosive cheery seeds, the chance of them growing and seeding the opponent seems ill-fitting for a floating ball of toxic gas.

    But anyway, it's not like they can't get new moves. Fireball fits, Burnout fits, Afterburn... fits? Solar Flare? It could use the sunlight to superheat the gases, thus producing such an incredible heat.

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    Solar Flare seems even more of a stretch actually. How does it use the sunlight? With mostly opaque gas? Does it just try really hard?

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    Meh S.unlight heats gas, superheated volatile gas -> Intense beam of heat.

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    That didn't answer the question. What's so special that suddenly sunlight can superheat an opaque gas? Sunlight heats anything, but it wouldn't super heat unless magnified somehow, which doesn't seem under Koffing/Weezing's realm of abilities.

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    I would agree that Solar Flare shouldn't go on. Besides, there's no Solar Flare TM, and I if anything a move like that should only be available with a TM.

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    Based on FRLG...
    Moves (Koffing/Weezing): Uncchanged
    01/01 Poison Gas
    01/01 Tackle
    09/09 Smog
    17/17 Selfdestruct
    21/21 Sludge
    25/25 Smokescreeen
    33/33 Haze
    41/44 Explosion
    45/51 Destiny Bond
    49/58 Memento

    TM List (*Weezing only):
    06 Toxic
    10 Hidden Power
    11 Sunny Day
    12 Taunt
    15 Hyper Beam*
    17 Protect
    18 Rain Dance
    21 Frustration
    24 Thunderbolt
    25 Thunder
    27 Return
    30 Shadow Ball
    32 Double Team
    34 Shock Wave
    35 Flamethrower
    36 Sludge Bomb
    38 Fire Blast
    41 Torment
    42 Facade
    43 Secret Power
    44 Rest
    45 Attract
    46 Thief
    62 Cherry Bomb

    HM List:
    Flash

    Egg Moves:
    Screech
    Psywave
    Psybeam
    Destiny Bond
    Pain Split
    Will-o-wisp

    Where do these three go? I added Cherry Bomb to TMs, did you guys want it on the moveset somewhere?
    Fireball
    Burnout
    Afterburn

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    I still digress about cherry bomb. Seeds'd just decompose/fall out. Let alone live, gestate and sap health of an enemy.

    EDIT: Put it this way: Would you give Koffing Leech Seed? And if not, why not

    EDIT 2: Looking at the vanilla moveset, fire and electrical moves aren't learnt naturally, so I'd say TMs (where applicable), Egg Moves (where possible) and Tutor moves (anything else). I can see Afterburn being related to will-o-wisp, so if it can an egg move. Fireball I'd like to see as a tutor in general and Burnout... IDK.
    Last edited by Black Temple Gaurdian; 07-15-12 at 09:13 PM.

  29. #29
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    Fireball, Burnout, and Afterburn aren't TMs, so I guess move tutors are the best option. Although if will-o-wisp is an egg move, I guess afterburn might have a father for it somewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Temple Gaurdian View Post
    EDIT: Put it this way: Would you give Koffing Leech Seed? And if not, why not
    Leech Seed doesn't explode!

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    Do you have fathers for those Egg Moves? They can be replaced if there are no fathers in Topaz for them. You could also add Burnout as a level 56/64 move because it's pretty epic (though Memento might be a little more epic).

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyndadile View Post
    Leech Seed doesn't explode!
    So because it's an explosive collection of seeds (note each individual seed deosn't explode) that's somehow okay? Despite the fact common sense and twisted pokemon logic both say that it's wrong (seeds decompose, grass type moves on a poison type), where would it get the seeds from? I get it, you want to give it a grass move, but where's your justification? Asides from "it's explosive".

    Cherry Bomb is effectively Leech Seed+, in description and effect. Therefore if a pokemon is unable to learn Leech Seed, it shouldn't be using Cherry Bomb.
    So far, every pokemon to use leech seed has been (IIRC) at the very least part plant, and had viable means of producing these life-sapping seeds. Koffing ans Weezing have no such justification.

    I guess the point I'm making is, Cherry Bomb is essentially comprised of multiple Leech Seeds, packed together with explosives. If it doesn't get leech seed, it doesn't get Cherry Bomb imo.
    Last edited by Black Temple Gaurdian; 07-16-12 at 07:26 AM.

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    Options: Grimer, Koffing, Duskull, Jackalant, Misticade, Mirust, Phantasomo, Atlaxa, Cirroft, Staryu (is Water 3 in RSE and FRLG, but listed as indeterminate here)

    Screech - None (Used to be Grimer, but we removed it)
    Psywave - Phantasomo
    Psybeam - None
    Destiny Bond - Koffing, Misticade, Mirust, Phantasomo
    Pain Split - Atlaxa
    Will-o-wisp - Duskull, Jackalant

  33. #33
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    Staryu should be Water 3, we never made a decision to change it. I'm pretty sure no indeterminates are breeding moves off of the line either.

    Okay so I've done a check of most of the Pokemon for Fireball and Afterburn, I don't think any indeterminates have them. But we HAVE to include Afterburn on Koffing's moveset IMO because it's actually criminally underrepresented. Only Celsinge and Ninetales have it.

  34. #34
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    Move tutor? I sounds like a move that would be taught rather than learnt naturally (In general, rather than Koffing-Logic).

    EDIT: I'm not sure if Tutors are one-use, but I was thinking for under-represented moves they could be repeatable tutors, with some kind of cost to offest it.
    Last edited by Black Temple Gaurdian; 07-16-12 at 07:14 PM.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyndadile View Post
    This. I can't really imagine Koffing shooting a bunch of seeds out of its pores and setting down roots to absorb energy from them.
    Pardon me, but this sounds disgusting...

    ...ly awesome. I approve of Cherry Bomb!

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blade Flight View Post
    Pardon me, but this sounds disgusting...

    ...ly awesome. I approve of Cherry Bomb!
    Remember, you made me do this.

    Turns out, I was wrong. I can imagine it.

  37. #37
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    Rule #34 :P Well... and Rule #35, except you got the roots in the wrong places

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyndadile View Post
    Remember, you made me do this.

    Turns out, I was wrong. I can imagine it.
    Ut the uck?

    that pic makes me itchy

  39. #39
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    . . . . . . .At this point, I feel we should just drop this issue, and leave it as simply a move-tutor move, a one off, or just leave it all together.
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  40. #40
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    Well you wanted Cherry Bomb's. That's just what happens when one successfully seeds :P

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