Suggestions

[neon.Barnacle]

Instead of thinking of the Kirant league as a "side league", why not just use the concept of a "double-league challenge"? In order to access the E4, you have to prove yourself by beating both leagues. This would work perfectly if each region had 6 gyms, then the leagues would be symmetrical. I guess a 6-4 league would work as well, but I like me some symmetry.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

^ That

[ImmunityBow]

I just feel it's difficult to find really good environments for the Kirant gym leaders. For 6 gym leaders of different types, that'd be kind of difficult, wouldn't it? All of the Caldera gym leaders have cities that reflect their philosophies and typing, for Kirant it's not as easy.

[NyteFyre]

Well, maybe the landscape could influence their choices, kinda like in DPPt.

[Reliability]

Current suggested leaders -- 6 in Caldera, 1 w/o location
Froy -Fire (Cranewing)
Therma -Flying (Softwind)
Fernando -Grass (Roothaven)
Gerad -Electric (Dynamo)
Christina -Ice (Front Town)
Osiro -Ground (Saharan)
Layla- Dark (???)

[there are only 6 types left because 12 types are now for gym leaders, 4 for the E4 and we aren't using Poison or Bug, winch brings us to 18, the number of types in Topaz]

Where Each Type Could Go ---all but bolded for E4 slot
Fire -locked in Cranwing (b/c of demo)
Flying -locked in Softwind (b/c of demo)
Grass - Roothaven, Hollowlog, Laysan
Electric - seems necessary for Dynamo Gardens
Ice - seems necessary for Frost Town
Ground - fits too well into Saharan
Dark - Mistvale, Ichthyes
Rock - Enechestra, Sedcini
Psychic - Mistvale, Icthyes, Kalypso
Fighting - Mistvale, Kalypso
Ghost- Colossus, Icthyes, Roothaven
Normal- Cetacea, Kalypso
Dragon- Cedsini

Now, the point of getting rid of Hanzo was to not use Mistvale as a gym city, therefore here are my recommendations for the two leagues:

Caldera
Fire- Cranewing
Flying- Softwind
Ghost -Roothaven [it's a "spiritual place," but I don't know how many ghost pokemon we have to work with]
Electric -Dynamo
Ice -Frost Town
Ground -Saharan

Kirant
Fighting -Kalypso [dance master gym leader=elegant martial arts]
Grass -Laysan [Berries]
Normal -Cetacea [No real rationale, just seemed to fit]
Psychic -Icthyes [Cheats at gambling]
Dragon -Sedici [mountain=dragons]
Rock - Enechestra [Shells, but we could use Portwind in a pinch]

And Layla can have her E4 spot back

[SilentSentinel]

Hmm, I actually really like those as the types for the most part.

[NyteFyre]

I'd still like to see Layla as a Gym leader, but I do like your ideas as well, Reli.

[Reliability]

If you really want, the psychic leader and Layla can be switched, since my rationale is basically the same for both of their types.

[NyteFyre]

That works! Psychic is a little over done in my opinion.

[Zenith]

I dunno about some of those. The canon games generally use Gyms that fit the geography the town is around. That's okay, but basing them off of the personality of the town, or a vague idea related to it, isn't. For one, the reputation of a city changes over time, and most of these gyms have presumably been there for a while. If Ichtyes has a Psychic gym based on the idea of cheating at the casino, or a Dark gym because of the city's bad rep, we would basically have to run with that idea for the Gym, and why would the League build an official Gym around a concept like that? Not to mention that the canon generations so far have had three Rock and three Fighting gyms, and no Dark ones.

[ImmunityBow]

I'm also not seeing a Ghost gym so early in the game. There are a lot of Normal-type moves early in the game, and basically no light-types (Unless Whispaw gets Shine earlier, or Mareep/Echoise are trained to level 30+) or dark-types (Venap might have Bite by then).

[neon.Barnacle]

I am against the idea of having gyms in Icthyes and Cetacea, because they're where the TR and OD headquarters are situated, and gyms would feel awkward there.

[STT]

Remember Pryce? GSC gym in TR HQ city.

[Reliability]

Well once again, the geography of many of the cities is either underspecified or simply not there. And, if we want to avoid using Icthyes and Cetacea as well as incorporate 6 gym into Kirant, we need to revamp some of the city concepts so that something in the their geography or at least their 'culture' can incorporate a gym type or gym leader lifestyle.

If we want to avoid having the ghost gym so early, I'd move a new gym into Mistvale and leave Roothaven Gym-less. I'd like to keep grass in Laysan since it fits pretty nicely there and I don't see anything else going in Roothaven (again, unless the description I updated with something else)

[ImmunityBow]

That'd be 3 gym leaders really quick, then a long gap before Kalypso/Laysan though.

We could always have a Bug leader that just isn't Mandy.

[neon.Barnacle]

Everyone seems to have forgotten that a gym can be the same type as an E4 member, as seen in GSC with Lance/Claire, as well as in Emerald with Juan/Wallace.


Anyway, I'm not too concerned about what the gym types are, but more of the gym distributions among the cities. After looking over the map carefully, this is what I propose for the gym cities, in the order which the gyms become available:

Kalypso City - A gym here is fine, since Hollowlog is now missing one. Normal works best here, imo. Fighting is good as well.

Portwind City - A good length away from Kalypso, but this is the ideal spot for Kirant's second gym. Fighting fits well here. Other potential types are Dark, Water, Normal, or Psychic.

Sedcini City - Since Sedcini Cave is the location for an Orion/Rocket dispute, we can incorporate the Sedcini gym leader in the plot somehow. Potential types are Rock, Steel, and Dragon.

Laysan Town - This gym is not open initially, but will be after the events in Sedcini, where the player can easily reach it through Cetacea. Grass seems obvious, but since Roothaven already has that type, Normal could work as well.

Enechestra City - This gym will also be closed until after certain conditions are fulfilled. Good place for a gym since Enechestra is the gateway to Colossus and the west side of Caldera. We can have our Dark type gym here, but Enechestra is such a generic city that any type could work here. And because the city's so generic, we can reshape its theme and history based on the type we choose.

Aquapolis City - Nobody has actually suggested this city for a gym location yet, most likely because the most associated type would be Water, which is already used in the E4. However, as I said further up in my post, gym types can coincide with E4 types. The gym also doesn't have to feature Water as its theme: Steel (it's a man-made underwater city), Dragon (most dragons reside in the ocean), and Dark (pretty dark on the ocean floor) are all potential types.


And that's my two cents. I really think this is the optimal setup for gym locations, at least in terms of gameplay.

[Merlin]

well that actually sounds really good...
and yes if you do stop yourself from being able to use the same type as a gym and an e4 it'll really mess up and really slow down production on the game...

[ImmunityBow]

Potentially brilliant brainwave:

Since the HERO can train his Pokemon so well with the time he's given, why can't a gym leader?

What if Tristan (Light-type E4) were a gym leader? He improves after you beat him, then ousts one of the E4 somehow (how do they get chosen anyhow?) and then you fight him again in the E4, with improved/changed Pokemon. Then, after you beat the E4, Bradley will settle down and take Tristan's place as a Light-type gym leader.

E4 that appears earlier, natural progress, AND storyline character development! The cherry on top: we can reuse his sprites!

[Cyndadile]

I like it.

The cherry on top: we can reuse his sprites!

Hmm. That's the best part?

[NyteFyre]

That is the most BRILLIANT Idea ever, IB!

[Cyndadile]

You forget peanut butter. But it is definitly a close second.

[Zenith]

Interesting idea. It always seemed like the Gym Leaders and Elite Four were on the same level in the League, and just applied for positions where they were available. We could still run with that, though. During the events of the game, an Elite Four member retires/resigns/gets fired and Tristan (or another Gym Leader) takes their place in the E4. You fight that person once as a Gym Leader, before the E4 member leaves, and again when he/she/whatever is made an Elite Four member. Then Bradley could take that member's old Gym postgame, after he has beaten the E4+1 himself. He wouldn't even have to use the same type, as long as it isn't already being used. The problem is, why would they let a guy that just went pro become a Gym Leader. I mean, the Kanto League let Blue do it, but it's probably a lot more complicated by the time Topaz takes place.

There were overlapping types in G/S/C because two leagues used the same Elite Four. There would have to be overlap. And Emerald did it in an attempt to be different from R/S.

Problem is, we still have to factor in the number and rarity of 'Mons of each type. We have 17 Light types, but most of them are evolved, legendary, one-offs, or really rare in general. You also have to remember that the gyms have multiple trainers, with their own varying teams, in addition to the Gym Leader. We would have to make the Light gym late, and that doesn't give us much time for us to mention that an Elite Four member retired/resigned/got the hook. In addition, Tristan will still be fresh in the player's mind, and his presence in the E4 wouldn't be as much of a surprise, as the player had fought him recently.

[Cyndadile]

If Bradley is the champion, after you defeat him he could become the gym leader.

[SilentSentinel]

Vincent is the champion if I remember. This is just an idea, but what if we scrap Christina and have the old e4 person be a member of one of the teams? That person could retire from the e4 after the Jirachi conflict, and would let us reuse their sprite too.

[ImmunityBow]

That could work too. Christina is also one of those not-so-inspirational characters.

Also, Zenith, there are a few Pokemon who are not Light by type but rather Light by nature, such as Ampharos and Phantasomo. They would work well in fleshing out a Light-type gym leader's or E4 member's team.

[Zenith]

Aren't we making Ampharos Electric/Light? And isn't Phantasomo already part Light?

And the problem is that so many of the Light 'Mons are either really rare or the second or third form in a line. Because ones like Dolphure, Corrona, Illumbra, etc. are all final forms we can't use them in an earlier Gym, and ones like Engil, Purior, Blitzfaust, etc. are all rare, we can't just give them to several trainers in a Gym. Basically, a Light Gym would be hard to do, while having Tristan in the Elite Four wouldn't be a problem. Could we do something with a different Leader?

Having a Rocket or Orion member as the 7th Gym Leader, depending on what side you're on? Unless the player directly affects that person becoming Leader there, it makes no sense for that to happen, when you think about it.

Vincent as Champion...it just seems...cliche since R/B/G/Y did it. I mean, having a rival as the "final boss" would come off as doing it because 1st Gen did it. We need to really pull someone out of left field, but in a way that makes the reveal really awesome. I had an absolutely amazing idea, but we can't use it...the Rattata line isn't in the C/K 'Dex...

[SilentSentinel]

Phantasomo is Psychic/Ghost, but also get Light Wave. I thought there was some talk about making Ampharos Electric/Light, Togepi Light, and Togetic Light/Flying, but I don't remember if it was ever officialized or not.

[Reliability]

Based on neon's order/suggestions and the want to re-use Tristan in a light gym:

Kalypso City - Fighting
Portwind City - Light (What I envisioned is sort-of a twin lighthouse to the one in Olivine, which could double as the gym. There are all kinds of cool things we could do with the elevators for a gym puzzle as well)
Sedcini City - Dragon
Laysan Town - Normal
Enechestra City - Psychic, Ghost or Rock
Aquapolis City - Dark

That only doubles two of the E4, unless someone still wants Layla out, in which case we can substitute in a new type if we want.

[ImmunityBow]

Reliability: The Lighthouse idea is a good one.

Zenith: Ampharos is pure Electric, Phantasomo is Psychic/Ghost. But both have light tendencies. Also, Togepi/Togetic are being changed to Light and Light/Flying, and a case could be made for Clefairy, though we decided to stick with normal there because of its nocturnal habits and moon-based nature. As for trainers in a gym, there could be a sort of "sun theme" going on that could replicate the Light-type without straying too far into the Light Pokemon themselves. Tropius is one of such Pokemon that feels right at home in a Light-type gym. Especially if it's a later gym, then we are given more permission to deviate from the type, and if it's earlier there would be fewer trainers and thus fewer Pokemon to deal with anyway. In any case, Dragon-type gyms and E4 in the past have used Gyarados and Aerodactyl, which are not Dragon-type, and often use Dragonair several times with the same trainer. I don't see a problem having one or two repeating Pokemon (especially with regards to Tristan: he could have, say, a earlier leveled Blitzfaust in the gym and a higher-leveled Blitzfaust in the E4, or his whole team could be just evolved-forms and higher level versions of the gym with some changes).

Also Engil isn't very rare in any shape or form :/

[neon.Barnacle]

I like all of Reli's ideas, although looking at the Topaz dex, a normal-type gym may be a problem since I don't see any really good normal type Pokemon.


Also, I'm personally against getting rid of Christina, because I planned on giving her an important role in the storyline...

[Zenith]

Wait...putting Layla in Aquapolis wouldn't work. A Dark gym in an underwater city would be more of an "abyssal, foreboding" Dark, than the "night, not evil" Dark type Layla would represent. Her name apparently means "night"!

Wouldn't going with a "Sun" theme for a Light gym overlap a little in style with Fernando's Grass gym?

Huh, I thought Engil could only be found in that hidden shrine in Mt. Frost. Guess I heard wrong.

[NyteFyre]

I believe that's Mirust, that's hidden only within the Mt.Mist shrine thingy.

[Blade Flight]

Actually, you are both incorrect; Atlaxa is found there.

[SilentSentinel]

Mt. Frost Shrine (secret): 20% Duval, 20% Engil, 10% Duval, 10% Engil, 10% Slowpoke, 10% Mirust, 5% Atlaxa, 5% Slowpoke, 4% Mirust, 4% Slowbro, 1% Mirust, 1% Slowbro

Or you guys could do some research and figure out you are all partially right.

[Blade Flight]

Or you guys could do some research and figure out you are all partially right.

I actually lol'd IRL. Thanks, but...wasn't there only one Mirust originally?

[Merlin]

a thought about the e4 champion: y not use the Rocket or Orion boss for this person?
course it'd be kinda wierd especially if you're allowed to choose whether your on Orion's side or on Rocket's side...
so maybe you should use the Orion leader since rocket's leader was used for a gym in RBGY/FRLG...

[Zenith]

It doesn't really make sense. Why would either the head of what is basically the Mafia or the leader of an up-and-coming vigilante group just happen to be in good enough standing with the League to be some random trainer's final test to going pro? Wouldn't the League know who Giovanni and Ophelia are?

[NyteFyre]

I have to agree, it doesn't make sense. Though on the topic of Silver/Acanthite's name for the guy, Maybe he could be the E4 champ? Nah...What would he be doing in C/K when he has his own game to run?

[ImmunityBow]

I think Vincent as champ is good enough, honestly. We just need to write him in better.

[NyteFyre]

Agreed. Vincent is the most reasonable to put in.