Gym Leader Info and Discussion

[BladeVap]

Is anyone else noticing that Fernando, the third GL, gets Surf as an unlockable? I believe in terms of all regulal (meaning eight Gyms with unlockables in a good normal order) fangames and canon ones, Morty (4th of HG/SS)has the earliest Gym you could get the right to use Surf in. Fernando is even earlier.

[Reliability]

There is a simple explanation for that.

The route between Gallea and Portwind means that surf has to be unlocked before Tristan. Since we want to give Bella and Jane the Rivalry Orb shards, Fernando is the best option. What I was envisioning was a copy of GSC Whitney, who unlocked strength, you didn't get the HM until Olivine.

[Cyndadile]

You don't seem to need the HM until Gallea, so we could have it available around there or push unlocking back to gym 5.

[Reliability]

You don't seem to need the HM until Gallea, so we could have it available around there or push unlocking back to gym 5.

That was what I was insinuating, yes.

[Cyndadile]

I was just saying that we could go either route and have the same result, depending on what people want to do.

[ImmunityBow]

The route between Gallea and Portwind was supposed to be a ferry route, but if people want the extra leveling time that's possible too.

[zeroality]

Does someone have a copy of the map with town/place names and route numbers? That would be helpful, seeing that I really don't know most of them.

http://www.pokemontopaz.net/reposito...ps/fullmap.png

Not sure how up-to-date that is. If it's outdated then someone needs to make a new one.

As for the levels, the reason Blue was so low at the end of Kanto in GSC is because Kanto was severely neutered. Pretty much the only battles you had in Kanto were the gym leaders - there were probably less than a couple dozen trainers in-between?

I think the gym Pokemon levels are fairly reasonable, and we will be playtesting the game as we go along so we can always lower the levels if needed.

[Cyndadile]

Thanks Zero, I can work with that.

[Tyrannigon64]

So, is the HM for Surf obtained before or after you challenge the gym? I have an idea for a gym that would only work if Surf has already been obtained (it's basically using Cut, Flash, and Surf to make potions). I already made the gym, but afterwards realized "Wait, the player might not get Surf until after this gym, therefore making the gym impossible. Crap."

[Reliability]

My plan was that you won't get Surf until after you beat Bella, two gyms later. But since you don't have the badge, you wouldn't be able to use Surf outside of battle anyway.

But could you replace the Surf bits with something else, not to do with HMs?

[Tyrannigon64]

But isn't it Roothaven's badge that lets you use Surf outside of battle?

[Reliability]

Ah, my stupid. I assumed you talking about the Roothaven gym. Probably should have asked first.

The only logistical issue about getting the HM before is that it would allow you to go to Portwind before you beat Bella. I guess we could put some other block in place to make sure that you can't, but I feel like not getting the HM until after would still be better and reduce randomness like the RAGECANDYBAR guy in Mahogany.
It might be a workable place for some plot stuff, but I would rather not. So see if you can think of an alternative to surf. If not, I'm sure we can work something out.

[Tyrannigon64]

No, I can't think of any alternative to Surf. Also, it's not just you're stupid, it's mine too, I should have specified that I was talking about Gallea. Perhaps it could be a block that only Bella knows how to get rid of? Just something that came to my mind.

[Cyndadile]

It could have something to do with the rivalry orb...

[Reliability]

It could have something to do with the rivalry orb...

I'd kiss you right now, if that were possible/effective via the Internet.

But it's not, so I guess you'll have to make do without one.

[Tyrannigon64]

There's a rivalry between Kalypso gym and Gallea gym, right? What if Jane blocks the way to the water, and when you talk to her she says "I won't move until you tell Bella to come out here and battle me!" Then once you finish battling Bella and she gives you the badge, she'll say "Oh? Jane's waiting outside for me? Thank you for letting me know. I'll go out and see her." Once you get close to the water, you'll overhear a conversation between them, and they'll move out of the way (probably towards the Pokemon Center, because Bella's Pokemon have all fainted because you just defeated her, and they probably want to battle each other). Could something like that work?

[Cyndadile]

I'd kiss you right now, if that were possible/effective via the Internet.

But it's not, so I guess you'll have to make do without one.

Besides, that would make things complicated.

Anyways, I'm not sure why Jane wouldn't go in herself. If we could think of a reason for that, Tyrannigon's idea would be good too.

[Reliability]

...fine, be that way. ;P

How about this? I tried to refine Tyrannigon's idea a little.
After defeating Jane, you'll have learned about an old conflict between the normal and poison gyms. After defeating Jane, she'll decide that she needs to settle the score once and for all to end the animosity between the two. She beats you to Gallea but is kept out of the gym by the gym trainers, who have been ordered to keep her out. Jane has to wait outside (inconveniently blocking the path) while you go in to convince Bella to come out. Bella leaves after your match, and when you exit, someone will let you know that Jane and Bella have left for Laysan to have their battle, as it was the village built on the border between their two territories and was the site of the last epic battle. ALSO, the two of them being there could allow them to be reoccurring characters in a later plot device/side quest in Laysan. They are so evenly matched that every battle they have ends in a draw, so they must remain in Laysan for several days to let their Pokemon recover between matches, thus their position can reamin the same until the time comes for Laysan to be useful.

[Tyrannigon64]

I think that's a good idea. I would also like to know why Kalypso and Gallea gyms have this conflict.

[ImmunityBow]

I think that's an absolutely excellent way of finally incorporating Zantilidae/Pythang/Rivalry Orb into Topaz's world. This is a really great idea.

The reasoning is allowed to be a little fuzzy over why they have such a rivalry: Mongeese and vipers' animosity is difficult to explain as well.

[Cyndadile]

Yes.

I can see something happining with the Rivalry orb and Kuranpu, seeing how they are basically opposites. Like you draw out Kuranpu by using the orb in a special way?

[SilentSentinel]

We would need to make it a key item or something then, otherwise players might accidentally sell it or throw it away.

[Tyrannigon64]

Can't you give the Rivalry Orb to Zangoose/Seviper to evolve them into Zantillidae/Pythang when they level up? If so, does it disappear after use?

[SilentSentinel]

Hence making it a key item. Then it wouldn't disappear after use.

[Tyrannigon64]

Can Pokemon hold key items? I don't think they can, but I might be mistaken.

Edit: Just checked Bulbapedia. Key items can not be held by Pokemon.

[NyteFyre]

you probably just hit the use button, or maybe go somewhere special while having the orb, and the pokemon you want to evolve in the first slot, or something.

[SilentSentinel]

They can't be held, but they can be used, right? There's a way to edit it in ROM hacking at least.

[ImmunityBow]

We could just make it cost 0P so no one would sell it. Or warn in game not to sell it.

Or you could make a key item, and after the end of the sidequest you lose the key item and gain the evolution item.

[zeroality]

Or just do what most other RPGs do: have the stores refuse to buy it.

[BladeVap]

It's not that hard, guys...

*Normal item
*Cannot sell it or drop it
*Program it so it doesn't disappear on use

Or, if that doesn't work, make it like the Griseous Orb or the Gracedia Flower.

Also, while on the topic of items, can we make the inventory like Gen IV and beyond and give the player infinite space?

[Cyndadile]

5-Price-The cost of the item when you buy it. Note that when the item is sold, it is sold for half this price (by default). If an item has a price of 0, it cannot be sold (Key Items and HMs should have a price of 0).

Anyone read the wiki?

[Merlin]

Cyndadile--great way to solve the problems, so yeah pricing it at zero wouldn't be bad, though doing it the way PikangX explained will also work...

The route between Gallea and Portwind was supposed to be a ferry route, but if people want the extra leveling time that's possible too.

IB--this route can still be a ferry route, but if the players could also surf that would be good too. Think of Mr. Briny and his cottage & boat from RSE, he would take you from one city to the next, but later on he was gone so you'd have to surf. Course he came back later as the ship's captain, but i figured that this idea could work.
Unfortunately this idea's usless if this was already going to be implemented later anyway.

[Reliability]

Even if some of the plot shows up in Portwind (pre-gym), I wouldn't like having such little journeying time in between Gallea and Portwind. That's the main reason that I don't really want a ferry. However, if we did use the ferry the gym levels of Tristan and Bella could be similar, thereby reducing the overall levelling of the gym leaders, which has been commented on as being really high. But I don't think that's enough for me to want a ferry there.

Nyte, I think that was the general plan.

[Tyrannigon64]

Whatever lets me use Surf in Gallea gym. I'll try to post Gallea gym tomorrow. If no one likes the idea, then the whole Jane and Bella plot thing doesn't need to happen (but it might still be good anyways )

[MeekRhino]

I think it's great to have higher level leaders. I was always disappointed in the canon games because they never had a storyline for the entire level progression. It just capped out and then you were stuck grinding for no reason except for personal achievement.

[Merlin]

yeah, personally i wouldnt mind going against someone who's got like level 100 pokemon one day in a game (i'd die if i ever did) but having the cap stop at like 50 or 60 like they did in FRLG and GSC (E4) wasnt really the greatest...

Unfortunately this would mean that we'd have to have tons of battles between leaders to make sure we're at a good level to defeat tehm.

[NyteFyre]

I agree, but think of it this way. At least with this, we can make the game last longer, be replayable, and have the player actually feel a sense of accomplishment when they finally make it past the Champion!

Also, I think it would be better to have a sort of Champion thing where instead of just grinding the E4 over and over, we could actually leave your character as Champion, and have to face a number of Champion challenges a day, with pokemon that are actually near your level, instead of just breezing through the same level E4 over and over, getting less and less exp each time. Not sure if we would be able to fees-ably program that in though...

[Merlin]

Well in RSE, and PDP (and i think HGSS, not sure though) had the Battle frontier and Battle tower, FRLG came with the Trainer tower, and these were great for leveling up some pokes after the E4, only problem is trying to implement this in Topaz has proven to be problematic as it is near impossible to program into the game as well as the fact that i'm certain they wont add it (or at least not for a long time to come)...
This was pretty much the best way you could level up pokes without trying to level grind pokes in the wild...

Thought just occurred to me: Emerald: it came with the ability to re-challenge gym leaders, so why not do that again? (assuming you can get the right code for it) This would be great for people who wish to level grind, only now the leaders will do it and you wont have to sit there for ever trying to level up pokes out in the wild against level 55 pokes (or whatever the max is for the wild)...
As there are 12 gyms you could go through all 12 a few times leveling up pokes as fast/slow as you like. This, of course, would only be done post E4, since i'm pretty certain that the BF won't be added.

[Reliability]

Kalypso: Staccato, Syncopation
Gallea: Venom, Elixir
Portwind: Shining, Luminescent,
Sedcini: Fantasy, Phantasm, Rugged
Enechestra: Turquoise, Headland
Aquapolis: Celestial, Eclipse, Ethernal, Penumbra, Deep Dark, Deep

List of all the badge suggestions thus far, with my own added where I felt we needed more options:
Staccato and Syncopation are both music terms that have a connection to the city name.
Luminescent is simply to add another option.
A Headland is a piece of rock that has resisted erosion by waves, which seems appropriate for a coastal rock gym. But I also very much like Turquoise.

I'm sorry if I missed anything, and if you have any more suggestions, please let me know. Otherwise, if you could post your preferences, and I can get these up.
As always, any results made here are contestable, and will only become official if nothing else comes up that has enough support to replace it.

[Tyrannigon64]

I like Staccato! I think it fits, but that might just be me. And what does "Syncopation" mean?