Suggestions

[Silver]

oh...

[Zenith]

I'm surprised. This place like just died or something.

Along with my suggestions above ^, I've got more

5 new moves. I was on the Pokegroup and I saw many like Serberine. They were also talking about if we had the 3 fangs, they would go PERFECT with them. Make some little alterations, and create our own 3 fangs. Like Blaze bite, Static bite, and "Frost" bite.

Last, I was looking at the place where if you came too late, what you would have wanted. Acid rain, Thunderstorm, and the other, though not sure of, aftershock.

I dunno, maybe we could just "borrow" the elemental fangs from 4th Gen. I mean, it was a good idea in the first place, as it gave pretty much anything with a decent set of teeth a way to improve type coverage. More weather types? Dunno, but it would make anything with a weather clearing ability more useful.

Wow, talk about hitting the brakes...but I finally got my computer working right, so I should be more active again.

Going back to something I brought up that got overlooked...is there any chance that we could move the Eye of Sand over to Kirant? It would make more sense for a desert to be in the more flat part of the overworld, and Caldera would be a little less chaotic. And we can always mess with the map post-demo.

[ImmunityBow]

Sorry, but we really do have enough moves as it is. Enough at least so that Serberine actually has a full moveset, if it had a few slots no one knew what to do with then maybe but in this case it's just too generally extraneous. The three fangs will have to be a no.

As for Eye of Sand, it actually makes entire sense as far as geography goes. Deserts are often formed near mountain ranges, such as the mountainous path on the way to Mt. Frost. Also in Encounter Rates we have a fun Iglonia/Torkoal turtle dynamic where the two areas meet :3

[Zenith]

Well, we need to do something to keep Kirant's routes from being so generic.

[STT]

about finding those cheats i think that they should be set up so that you can't trade, or battle with "sharked" pokemon but be able to use the regulars....
and as for being able to find them we should put them all in as braille since in the games you only ever use braille like once or twice and if you're smart enough to go get a walkthrough that's free to download then you don't need to really translate it (in the main games) but it would be good if we added a lot more braille everywhere like in a library have a book written in braille with information about cheat codes saying u cant use them without 1st beating the E4...
as well as having braille scattered about on rocks and junk in the region where you have to remember where you found it and try to translate it...
though maybe not so much that we cant remember where the specific braille is located...

Better yet, a combination of Braille and some base64-encoded strings. :P Base64 is confusing as hell if you can't find a translator for it... unless you're a haxer.

[ImmunityBow]

Kirant's routes aren't overly generic either, we made sure of that. It has its fair share of forested mountains (which Caldera doesn't get, by the way) and lots of Pokemon you can't get in Kirant, such as Engil, Duval, etc. The one city I could see being switched with something in Kirant though is Colossus City, though I enjoy its position in Caldera as a foil to the rest of the nature-harmonic cities.

[totodileman]

underwater change.

I talked to Quinn about this, and he animated something for me.

when I was swimming, I saw on the bottom of the floor, you see the marks from above...right?
So....what if we had it the same with our underwater?

along with the little bit of fog, and the bubbles that are in RSE, there could be an overlay of something like this...maybe.

(me and him are gonna be sharing the same Photobucket, to keep our Topaz stuff together)

also, to make topaz look better, does anyone know where the HGSS water is? Quinn can't find it for the life of him, and he wants to make a "3rd Gen" of it, to spice up that other water.

pardon the new guy talkin, just throwin something out.

[neon.Barnacle]

The waves make it seem as if you're still on the water. It's just not how underwater looks like.

[Cyndadile]

I agree. But there could be some bubbles coming out of you. (Or do they do that already?)

[Zenith]

I'm still worried about Caldera getting all of the interesting stuff.

Anyway, I wanted to get your (IB's) opinion on something I brought up a couple pages back. Don't think you saw it.

Coming full circle again, I have another post-demo idea...another idea for a Special Light attack...but this time it's a move that already exists.

Aurora Beam is called "a rainbow-colored beam" in its description. The move clearly invokes light in it. And the only reason it's an Ice move in the official games is because the official games don't have a Light type yet. With a couple tweaks (increasing its BP to 95, dropping its uses to 15, and changing the secondary effect from lowering Attack to lowering Special Defense or Accuracy), we can use it as the strong-but-reliable Special attack the Light type is missing. Special-based Light types would gain something to sweep with that isn't the relatively innacurate (and rare) Wrath or the too-weak-to-sweep-with Light Wave.

You might be thinking "What about the niche Aurora Beam had as an Ice move? Where are we going to get a mid-power Ice attack to replace it with?" Once again, the answer is a move that already exists, but this time it's one that has already been made for Topaz.

Right now, Cold Wind is all but redundant. It's almost exactly like Icy Wind, which was introduced in 2nd Gen: both are Special and both have a base power of 55. The only difference is the secondary effect, which itself is just like Powder Snow's effect. If we raise Cold Wind's base power to around 70, and give it a new name that differentiates it from Icy Wind, it could fill Aurora Beam's old niche.

Of course, this would involve having to change at least a few movesets around, so it would have to happen after the demo gets out.

[ImmunityBow]

If you're worried about Caldera getting everything interesting Pokemon-wise, that would be entirely untrue: there are a fair few Pokemon unique to Kirant. If it's about environments, Caldera doesn't get the mountainous forest, the caves and river valleys and the beaches of Kirant either. If it's about gym leaders, I entirely agree with you even though there is so much storyline happening down there.

I've been discussing with neon and the best idea I've seen so far is a 4-badge "half league" in Kirant. If we're creative enough we can make it fundamentally different from Caldera's league so that it isn't just a rehashed league.

Here's an idea:
What about instead of having a Champion's Tower, we nix that whole idea and scatter the E4 across Kirant? After you get your 8th badge you can start traveling across Kirant, battling the Water, Steel, Dark and Light gym leaders in an environment that actually make sense: you could place each of the E4 in one of Kirant's towns without too much trouble at all.

As for Aurora Beam, I'm uncomfortable with the idea of two 95 BP moves in one type. The Light-type actually has a lot going for it, enough not to really need a strong special move. Look at Flash, the 50 BP quick-attack powerhouse. Smite, Holy Fist and Wrath all come together to fill in a lot of the things the Light-type needs. I'd rather have this seeming unbalance than to have all types become rehashes of one another as it has started to gravitate towards this in D/P.

[Quinn]

I'm not a fan of the e4 thingy. I think that is one thing we shouldn't change. I'm for having gym leaders in Kirant, but E4 should stay as is.

[Cyndadile]

I like the E4 idea, but it kind of ruins the whole all-in-a-row thing that is the main challenge (for me, at least).

[ImmunityBow]

Why is it the one thing we shouldn't change? I don't see it being any more sacrilegious than having 12 badges. The all-in-a-row is an issue though, true.

[Cyndadile]

Well, most people have the items to restore themselves completely, so that is not a HUGE problem.

The problem is using the same Pokemon, from my point of view. For that, you could have to "register" your pokemon for the E4 Challenge, and you have to use those pokemon for it. There might be a programming problem there, though.

[neon.Barnacle]

I agree in that we shouldn't mess around with the E4. They're one of the hardest challenges in any Pokemon game, with the 5-in-a-row aspect a major part of what makes them so difficult.

I still don't think we should leave the Caldera gyms untouched. Even if we add more gyms in Kirant, that doesn't change the fact that there are 5 gyms within the first 7 cities. And with such short routes between them, the first part of the game will feel very rushed. I would rather have 8 gyms dispersed throughout Caldera and Kirant than to just add 4 more in Kirant.

[Zenith]

As for Aurora Beam, I'm uncomfortable with the idea of two 95 BP moves in one type. The Light-type actually has a lot going for it, enough not to really need a strong special move. Look at Flash, the 50 BP quick-attack powerhouse. Smite, Holy Fist and Wrath all come together to fill in a lot of the things the Light-type needs. I'd rather have this seeming unbalance than to have all types become rehashes of one another as it has started to gravitate towards this in D/P.

Well, the problem is that it keeps Special-oriented Light types from having reliable STAB moves, and non-Light Special sweepers/tanks from having a Light move for type coverage. Smite and Holy Fist are both Physical. Flash is a priority move with a base power of only 50, making it only useful for 'Mons with crazy high Sp. Attack or slow revenge killers. From the movesets I saw, Wrath is an uncommon move, and still runs the risk of missing, with only 80% accuracy.

I see that you're worried about move redundancy, but without Aurora Beam or something similar there you have a very important niche with nothing in it. Special Light doesn't have a strong-but-reliable move like Physical Light does. Wrath is the very-strong-but-innacurate move, Flash turned into the priority move, and Light Wave is the mid power move that Lights and some non-Lights learn in the 20s or 30s. Since we're creating the Light type from scratch, we have to try and fill all of the basic niches, to get it evened up with the other types.

Remember how Grass types were forced into being bulky status-inducers in Gen 1, despite whatever their stats were, because their strongest move had a charge turn that warned your opponent (whoop, he's charging his lazor, better switch in Exeggutor), their second strongest move locked you in and gave your opponent an opportunity to set up, and their strongest after that was Razor Leaf and its 55 BP?

I just don't want Special-based Lights to be forced to be revenge killers or walls. The new Aurora Beam isn't like Aqua Tail (a slightly stronger but slightly less accurate alternate option for Waterfall), it's like another Surf (the type's go to Special sweeping move--Hydro Pump is still viable, but Surf is almost always a better option).

Anyway...To be honest, I don't like the idea of spreading the E4 around Kirant. It ruins the challenge the E4 has in the official games, and it also ruins the spectacle of the "final boss". The Elite Four & Champion fights need to feel more epic that just gym fights or slightly-out-of-the-way trainer fights.

[Merlin]

yeah moving the e4 around would be kinda messy to work with and problematic...
though i believe a Trainer tower setup should work cause if i'm right programming that wont be hard....
unless that's being placed with the battle frontier???
anyway i'm certain we can find something for the game to work...
(if anyone cares i can explain the basic idea of how i think the trainer tower works and go from there)

[ImmunityBow]

Which leaders would we replace in Caldera though?

I guess some ideas are:
- make Mandy a non-gym leader. She's just a girl who ranges around the Eastlog and Westlog forests a lot. We see her enough anyway on sidequests. Then, we can switch around Roothaven and Hollowlog (a big dead log seems more likely to be near a swamp anyhow) to give a breather between Hanzo and Fernando. Make a new gym leader for Kirant.
- change Torrence/Tory's type and make a Water-type gym leader in Aquapolis. I'd rather not do this since Sootopolis + Wallace make this a little... deja vu.
- make a Rock-type gym leader in Sedcini City
- move Christina somehow

If we stick to 8 gym leaders I would probably be looking at 2 gym leaders in Kirant: Gerad, Christina and Osiro are all pretty well spaced.


As for Aurora Beam: what about Physical Bug? Special Ground? Physical Fire? Physical Ghost? Physical Poison?There are a lot of deficiencies in moves, that force people to build movesets around them: this is a _good_ thing, in most cases, since just "pick STAB and go" isn't always the best idea. Once you start to make changes like these (and HP Light / Light Wave will be dealing similarly to how HP Grass, HP Bug and HP Flying have been used over the years) you start to open up a large can of worms. One that has to do with entire moveset redesigns (it's not as simple as simply inserting moves in because of the web of Egg Moves that connects them all) and sets a precedent that may or may not end up working out.

[Cyndadile]

That could work.

Me from another dimention is REALLY going to like that second idea...

[Zenith]

Maybe we can make Mandy an Elite Four member, and make Layla a Gym Leader?

As for Aurora Beam: what about Physical Bug? Special Ground? Physical Fire? Physical Ghost? Physical Poison?There are a lot of deficiencies in moves, that force people to build movesets around them: this is a _good_ thing, in most cases, since just "pick STAB and go" isn't always the best idea. Once you start to make changes like these (and HP Light / Light Wave will be dealing similarly to how HP Grass, HP Bug and HP Flying have been used over the years) you start to open up a large can of worms. One that has to do with entire moveset redesigns (it's not as simple as simply inserting moves in because of the web of Egg Moves that connects them all) and sets a precedent that may or may not end up working out.

Well, 4th Gen actually helped out a lot of those types. Physical Fire gained Fire Fang and Flare Blitz. Special Ground gained Earth Power. Physical Poison gained Poison Jab and Cross Poison. Physical Ghost and Physical Bug kind of got the short end of the stick, though. The problem is, most 'Mons in those categories are low in the tier list. Here are the ones in Borderline and up:
Physical Bug: Scizor has Technician, Swords Dance, and a part-Steel typing that gives it 10 resistances and only one weakness. Heracross is one of only 7 'Mons to learn Megahorn, and the only one to get STAB from it. Forretress is a wall.
Special Ground: None. Interestingly, the only two with higher SpA than Atk are the already fundamentally bad Camerupt and Gastrodon, and the only one with them the same, Claydol, is better as support or a tank.
Physical Fire: Ho-oh's SpA is only 20 points lower (110), making it still able to take advantage of Sacred Fire. It's Uber, anyway. Infernape's Atk and SpA are the same, and it's OU because of its ridiculously big movepool. An interesting example is Flareon: it has the stats to be UU (130 Attack!), but it's stuck in NU because its best physical attack is Fire Fang. If it had Flare Blitz, its access to Wish would make it UU easily.
Physical Ghost: Giratina is a mixed attacker, and Uber. Dusknoir is barely OU, and is actually relegated to support because of its lack of a STAB move it can use! Froslass is also mixed, but is usually support (as the only Ghost that can use Spikes), and relies on Ice Beam or Hail+Blizzard for damage.
Physical Poison: Crobat is the only one, and most of its moveset don't even use any Poison attacks! The only one that does uses Sludge Bomb, because its SpA is only 20 points lower, and because it can learn Nasty Plot! Then again, this has more to do with Poison being a horrible attacking move...

Now, comparing Special Light-types as of right now:
Dolphure: Dolphure has the SpA and Spd to be a special sweeper, but lack of a strong Light move it can reliably use complicates that...it doesn't even learn Wrath. Ghosts can take advantage of this (especailly Ferrian), hitting back with Doom Scythe or Shadow Ball--not even those defenses can stop a 2HKO--as can Dionare and Raiger, able to hit Dolphure with super effective attacks without having to worry about a Light move with more than 60 BP. Hidden Power Ground would help here, but its max BP is itself 60, Dolphure doesn't get STAB from it, and none of its counters have the double weakness to keep it from being better than a 3HKO. Ice Beam gives it something against Dionare, but won't stop Ferrian or Ludicolo. All of these potential counters keep Dolphure from being a reliable sweeper.

But what about support? Dolphure has some impressive defenses, and more speed than tanks and walls normally have. Unfortunately, Dolphure is still limited there. It doesn't have access to a recovery move outside of Rest (which can only be used once, and basically requires a Chesto Berry), and Wish isn't in Topaz. It can't use dual screens, either. Fortunately, it does get a phaze (Riptide), the kind-of-useful Water Wall, and Toxic (but what doesn't?). But its lack of access to non-situational healing or a way to reduce damage that it doesn't already resist makes it an anomaly...a supporter that itself must have support.

tl;dr: Lack of certain niche moves would trap Dolphure in UU. An edited Aurora Beam is one of them.

Will hopefully get to other Special Lights later, in a different post. Real life is calling. -_-

[Cyndadile]

4th gen helped that, but we're in 3rd gen still, where 4th didn't lend a helping hand to those types.

[Zenith]

Well, Topaz's new moves have helped a little. Physical Bug is getting Bug Bite (70 BP). Physical Ghost is getting Doom Scythe (60 BP, which is lower than I remembered it being...) and Marionette (60 or 120+40 BP). Physical Poison gets Venom Strike (50 BP), which is pretty weak, but is more of a high risk support move with a little power than an attacking one, anyway. Fault Line is listed as Support for some reason, so I don't know if it's Physical or Special. Physical Fire gets Temper (85 BP, but locks you in).

...Wow...uh...that's...a bigger problem than I was expecting. Well, let me explain. While 4th Gen did introduce some redundant moves, several were made to fill in niches the types previously didn't fill, and several were created as alternatives to other moves that wouldn't work on the movesets of some 'Mons (for example, Night Slash as an alternative to Crunch, for Darks like Absol who don't have the jaws for Crunch to make sense). It seems like what Game Freak has been trying to do is use the new moves to Luigify 'Mons with similar typing and/or stats, so that they aren't as forced to be played the same.

Basically, I think what I'm trying to say is that maybe, after the demo gets out, it wouldn't hurt to do two things:
1. Look over already existing moves, see how they round out, balance some if necessary, and (more importantly) see if there are any chances we could add a limited amount of new moves or bring a few certain ones in from 4th Gen. I'm not talking about something like "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if this was in?", but something more like "Having this move exist would help the game, here are a couple reasons why." I know there aren't any plans for this right now, but once the demo gets out, maybe we can try an intelligent discussion over it? But this would mess with a lot of movesets, which brings me to my other idea.
2. I actually brought this up a while back, and several people agreed. When the demo gets out, maybe we could go over the in-game Pokemon, one evo line at a time, and listen to legitimate reasons for altering the stats of new 'Mons and movesets of all of them. Again, people would need to provide good reasons for them.

I'm not trying to shake up anything, and I'm not trying to edit stuff for the sake of editing it. I just feel like there is a real chance of improvement here. From what I looked up and what people have told me, most, if not all of the movesets were created before the Physical/Special split was implemented. Furthermore, the fact that the attack types (Physical/Special/Support) are in a different post than the new moves themselves means that either someone forgot to put them in and didn't realize it until a while later...or that the new moves were also all finalized pre-split. If we do go over them again in an intelligent way, we can make Topaz that much better.

So, that's my take on it.

[neon.Barnacle]

Why does everyone want to get rid of Mandy and keep Fernandez? Wouldn't it be easier to just scrap Fernandez? He doesn't play any part in the story at all. One of the things I'm trying to do with Topaz is to make Gym Leaders get outside their gym to help their community. Really, why go all the way and switch Roothaven and Hollowlog (which doesn't actually make any sense, since Abaddon Swamp is already next to Hollowlog) when we can easily just scrap a single gym?

[ImmunityBow]

Fernando has a really well-made name, for one :3

Also, Mandy appearing so much is one of the reasons I don't feel so attached to her. We see her tons anyway. Topaz needs more unaffiliated NPC storyline characters. Mandy feels kind of generic and hard to detach from Bugsy.

The reason to switch (my bad with the positioning of Abaddon) would be to give trainers a breather between Hanzo and Fernando. Otherwise it doesn't really change much, even geographically (you could even imagine Hollowlog's log as having been something akin to Roothaven's tree). It certainly isn't very much trouble to make the switch.

@Zenith: The thing is that what you are trying to do IS a big upheaval. If we change Aurora Beam, then all the reasons that apply to Aurora Beam apply to actually creating 12 or so new moves to fill in all sorts of necessary slots for Pokemon. That would require a massive moveset, egg move, TM list, previous gen revamp upheaval that would necessitate a ton of work. I firmly believe that not allowing some Pokemon STAB moves that suit them is a way to encourage diversity. Crobat is cooler in that it's not just "STAB, Nasty Plot, and go". Half of Dusknoir's utility is in that it got Shadow Sneak, but not Shadow Claw. Fire-types must learn to deal with a lack of good Physical Fire moves (Flare Blitz is a step in the wrong direction IMO).

I'm going to preempt you on the Special Lights thing, just to illustrate:

Dolphure: Dolphure's abilities do not require a Light-type STAB. It's absolutely unnecessary. The coverage of Dark (which Dolphure is immune to) and Ghost (which is neutral to both Water and Ice) that Light-type provides isn't what Dolphure needs. It's more likely to run Surf and Ice Beam as a special sweeper, retaining STAB. But what's actually interesting is Dolphure's ability to use Serenade to block all contact moves (almost all Physical moves) then soak up specially or use Mirror Coat. Dolphure's Riptide and Speed make it a unique Pokemon with diverse uses.

Coroona: Coroona is likely UU regardless of any Light-type STAB, though Fire is a good support for Light (SE on Grass and Steel). It still has several excellent support options, with Will o' Wisp, Morning Sun, Charm, Yawn, Purify, etc.

Sirene: I think that it's best that Sirene not have too many options for attacking, it has potential to be broken wide open with what Lapras already has to offer.

Seraph: Has Wrath, needs it for the power in any case.

Slowpriest: Arguably would enjoy STAB, but gets other toys to use such as Enlighten with excellent HP to back it up, and Purify, as well as other STAB to fall back on.

Benengil: Benengil was designed specifically to discourage attacking, as might be evident from the 3 attack moveset.

As for Fault Line, it was changed after that list was made, so it's Physical rather than Support now.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

Umm Isn't Doom Scythe a Dark move?

[SilentSentinel]

Nope, doom scythe is ghost.

[Zenith]

Fernando has a really well-made name, for one :3

Also, Mandy appearing so much is one of the reasons I don't feel so attached to her. We see her tons anyway. Topaz needs more unaffiliated NPC storyline characters. Mandy feels kind of generic and hard to detach from Bugsy.

The reason to switch (my bad with the positioning of Abaddon) would be to give trainers a breather between Hanzo and Fernando. Otherwise it doesn't really change much, even geographically (you could even imagine Hollowlog's log as having been something akin to Roothaven's tree). It certainly isn't very much trouble to make the switch.

I'm with you on this one. Taking out Mandy would also remove a type advantage for Kelvoyant (which it already has too many of) and remove a weakness for Dionare (right now, we have gyms for all five of Grass' weaknesses). But I'm still worried about the player having 4 badges only a third of the way into the game, since Froy, Therma, Hanzo, and Fernando are all in the top right of the map. While you were gone, I posted an idea for moving Hanzo to sixth, and I'll bring that up later if you're interested.

@Zenith: The thing is that what you are trying to do IS a big upheaval. If we change Aurora Beam, then all the reasons that apply to Aurora Beam apply to actually creating 12 or so new moves to fill in all sorts of necessary slots for Pokemon. That would require a massive moveset, egg move, TM list, previous gen revamp upheaval that would necessitate a ton of work. I firmly believe that not allowing some Pokemon STAB moves that suit them is a way to encourage diversity. Crobat is cooler in that it's not just "STAB, Nasty Plot, and go". Half of Dusknoir's utility is in that it got Shadow Sneak, but not Shadow Claw. Fire-types must learn to deal with a lack of good Physical Fire moves (Flare Blitz is a step in the wrong direction IMO).

Which is why it would have to be once the demo gets out. At least, it would be worth looking over movesets. I brought it up while you were gone, and the general consensus seemed to be that looking over the movesets again was a good idea. From what I've seen there are several (Arachmare & Abyssus, among others) that have serious flaws, and there are signs that a lot of them were made before the Physical-Special split was implemented in Topaz.

Well, I'm not saying we have to give everyone a bigger movepool. I guess I didn't make it very clear. It would be more so that we have the option to give them to certain 'Mons, to make them less like other ones with similar builds. For example, we have three 'Mons that are Water/Light--Dolphure, Slowpriest, and Sirene--and if one or more of them had access to Wrath or the edited Aurora Beam, the option is there for whatever 'Mon that gets it/them to be played differently than the others. And I can see why you don't want to overcomplicate things further, but there are still some gaping holes I'm worried about.

Giving Physical Fires an extremely narrow movepool (Flame Wheel and Temper, that's it) is basically dooming every Physical-based pure Fire (ie Flareon) to NU, well as ones with a second type, but no reliable moves of that type.

[ImmunityBow]

The thing is that Dolphure, Slowpriest and Sirene already play differently from one another. Dolphure has a speed advantage that greatly changes how it deals with other Pokemon, as well as Riptide. Slowpriest's arsenal of stat-boosting moves play very differently from Sirene's pure tanking.

And to be honest, the only way to get Fire-types out of NU/UU is to push them hard like Infernape and Heatran. In 4th gen, which Fire-types are seeing play besides the Ape and Heatran? The Ground/Rock/Water weak is just too devastating. Just because Physical Fires don't have an excellent STAB past Temper (which I would be fine pushing to 100 BP, since it really isn't quite worth the drawback yet) doesn't mean we can't diversify their movepools. It just has to be dabbling in different types. Most Physical Fires in 4th Gen use Fire Blast over Flare Blitz in any case, Flareon's trouble is an entire lack of good moves past Return, not just lack of STAB.

Arachmare is difficult to push because of its base stats, if I recall correctly all the movesets were done after the split, but were largely not designed competitively but more flavorfully by Ali. The idea wasn't to give each Pokemon what it needs but rather moves that fit.

Abyssus doesn't need any more pushing as is, Eclipse makes it possible Uber material already. Abyssus plays very uniquely (forming teams around his ability) which I believe is a good direction.

As for Hanzo, I would be fine moving him (Mistvale feels fine in Kirant as well) though Mistvale would need renaming.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

And to be honest, the only way to get Fire-types out of NU/UU is to push them hard like Infernape and Heatran. In 4th gen, which Fire-types are seeing play besides the Ape and Heatran?

Volcronic? :P Maybe in a later patch *hopeful*

Abyssus is gonna be powerful if played right. Calls in darkness (IIRC) and has a move that can curse foes without cutting HP.

[Zenith]

Eclipse alone won't make Abyssus Uber. TTar has Sand Stream and a BST of 600 and it's still only OU. Abomasnow is the lead for Hail teams, but its typing only lets it get as far as BL.

While Abyssus can be used as a Nightfall lead or a sweeper, it can't do either well right now. As a lead, Abyssus has Taunt, but that's pretty much it. Abyssus is even worse as a sweeper, despide having SD, because its move reliable STAB move is Bite. Umbrage is Special, and Ambush has a charge turn, and all an opponent has to do to stop it is bring out a Light type. Its type coverage is horrible--Doom Scythe doesn't get STAB and beats the same things Bite does, Slash doesn't get STAB, and it gets nothing good from TMs. Nightfall doesn't even do anything big right now besides help 'Mons with Night Vision (and who has that besides Wolvine?) or Moonlight. It can't even be a Lead/Sweeper hybrid because its defenses are mediocre and its lack of type coverage means it has a lot of counters. Right now, its ability is the only thing keeping it out of NU, lower than Absol, its prevo, has ever been in the official games.

Arachmare desperately needs Signal Beam. It's not exactly a good thing when the strongest Bug move it can learn normally is Bug Bite and its Atk is 45 points lower than its SpA. Right now, it need Signal Beam bred on it to even be viable in game, which means it's only viable when you have a male in the same breeding group that already learned Signal Beam, a female Spidream or Arachmare, and access to the day care, which isn't until almost halfway through the game! And it's just so the species can learn a move that it seems like it should already learn normally (Signal Beam makes enough sense on a mutated spider with psychic powers; Venomoth gets it in 4th Gen even though it isn't Psychic, and Dewgong gets it in FR/LG).

What's to say we can't work with some of the movesets to make them both competitive and flavorful? Maybe, instead of going through them all, we have a thread for people to suggest ones to look over again, and legitimate reasons why they could use a revamp.

[ImmunityBow]

Night time caries with it a 10-20% (the exact number wasn't confirmed) accuracy decrease for all non-Dark or Light-type Pokemon. Harskrow, Wolvine and Cackinge all benefit immensely from Night. Raiger shores up basically everything in the team. This isn't quite like Abomasnow. Also there's Rocket Punch, which can be quite potent since most Pokemon go to high happiness in competitive. To be safe, most people would probably put their happiness at about half which would give Abyssus a 90 BP STAB. It also has an excellent special movepool with a relatively decent stat to use it with. Since Egg Moves for it haven't been done yet (which is where we generally shore up some competitive flaw or give some new direction to the movesets), and the Absol revamp hasn't been done yet (which would shore up even more), you can influence this as much as you like in the revamp.

For Arachmare: I don't think ingame really counts as far as movesets go. Giving a midrange move when a Pokemon needs it, fine (Bug Bite's there, it's actually good enough for ingame), but if Gyarados can live on Thrash and Surf, surely Bug Bite is enough at least until it gets Hypnosis/Dream Eater. Arachmare doesn't really seem like the Pokemon to get Signal Beam by level up, and even then, only at levels 35+ (Where it gets Dream Eater). It's a night-time predator, it doesn't want to be flash around with beams. Dewgong has always had things like Aurora Beam, which makes the transition more natural, and Venomoth may as well be a Psychic-type, it shares so many moves with them and even learns Psybeam and Psychic naturally, I'm pretty sure.

As for little move changes that you feel need implementing, in the previous forum there was a "little corrections topic" in the Moves, Items, etc. forum for small things that didn't seem right. So, we do allow changes, one at a time, to the movesets if it feels like something is missed (for example Goldrake didn't have Pay Day for a while), though you have to make your case and have several people agree. I'm remaking the topic now.


Also, I'd just like to say that I appreciate having someone to argue with again, it's been a while. :3 I hope you stay for a long while, Zenith.

[neon.Barnacle]

To be honest I'm fine with having Fernando replace Mandy entirely, as long as the gym leader doesn't sit around all day inside the gym. There's no need to switch Roothaven and Hollowlog, or any other city really. I don't even know why you would contemplate such a messy maneuver just to reposition some gym leaders. Roothaven and Hollowlog are both suitable cities for a grass-type gym.

Anyway, it looks like we'll need to make this change in small steps. I think the first thing we'll have to decide is whether or not to increase the number of gyms. I already made an argument for a 12 gym league in one of my previous post, as well as reducing the number of gyms within the first 7 cities.

Also, I'd just like to say that I appreciate having someone to argue with again, it's been a while.

I'm going to sound like an ass but this is no place for arguing. We're trying to make a game here, and the faster we come to a consensus the better.

[NyteFyre]

Well, Arguing doe actually have benefits, in the right doses. It helps fire people up, and can bring to light certain points, and perspectives that may have been previously overlooked. It can inspire people to find the right, and most correct research, find opposing views, and over all, provide more insight, and choices for certain decisions.

However, too much arguing can be terrible. It can make some desperate enough to make-up research just to prove themselves right, or cause them to make hasty decisions. In high enough doses, it can kill the entire project, by forcing people to choose sides, and bringing everything to a standstill.

Basically, it's fine, as long as it doesn't escalade into an all out brawl.

I'd be glad to have 12 gyms, 6 in Caldera, 6 in Kirant, or whatever combination you guys come up with.

And, just to make a suggestion, I believe we shoudl take Torent, Overgrow, and Blaze off of the Starters, and replace it with something they could actually use. While the 3 are mainstays in the games series, I have to ask you this: How often do you actually make use of them? 2, maybe 3 times throughout the entire game? They do nothing in the overworld, don't do much for competitive teams, and are sort of never used...Since this is a fan game, why stick to tradition with Abilities? We aren't doing this for other parts, so why on this?

[Zenith]

(I know about the new thread. Just wanted to make these counterpoints here.)

Night time caries with it a 10-20% (the exact number wasn't confirmed) accuracy decrease for all non-Dark or Light-type Pokemon. Harskrow, Wolvine and Cackinge all benefit immensely from Night. Raiger shores up basically everything in the team. This isn't quite like Abomasnow. Also there's Rocket Punch, which can be quite potent since most Pokemon go to high happiness in competitive. To be safe, most people would probably put their happiness at about half which would give Abyssus a 90 BP STAB. It also has an excellent special movepool with a relatively decent stat to use it with. Since Egg Moves for it haven't been done yet (which is where we generally shore up some competitive flaw or give some new direction to the movesets), and the Absol revamp hasn't been done yet (which would shore up even more), you can influence this as much as you like in the revamp.

The problem still stands for Abyssus only being useable on teams based around him. As for Rocket Punch, making the player put a move on Abyssus that only works well if it hates your guts goes completely against the Absol line's "Dark != Evil" nature, and even goes against what you to do to get Abyssus in the first place (max happiness at night). Add in how much easier it is to gain happiness than it is to lose it, and it loses its practicality.

Umbrage is a strong attack, and 90 Base Sp. Attack is pretty good, but it pales in comparison to 135 Base Attack, and the ability to basically turn that into 270 with a single Swords Dance. With that, even Bite is more worth using than Umbrage.

Absol is a born sweeper. It just wouldn't be right to take the ability to reliably do that away. ...Maybe a second ability would work toward that...

For Arachmare: I don't think ingame really counts as far as movesets go. Giving a midrange move when a Pokemon needs it, fine (Bug Bite's there, it's actually good enough for ingame), but if Gyarados can live on Thrash and Surf, surely Bug Bite is enough at least until it gets Hypnosis/Dream Eater. Arachmare doesn't really seem like the Pokemon to get Signal Beam by level up, and even then, only at levels 35+ (Where it gets Dream Eater). It's a night-time predator, it doesn't want to be flash around with beams. Dewgong has always had things like Aurora Beam, which makes the transition more natural, and Venomoth may as well be a Psychic-type, it shares so many moves with them and even learns Psybeam and Psychic naturally, I'm pretty sure.

For one, GF remedied the Gyarados problem in 4th Gen by giving it Aqua Tail at 35. For two, they couldn't reliably do that before 4th Gen, because before then all Water attacks were Special. Couldn't we at least make it a Tutor move, to make it easier to get than breeding for it?

Also, I'd just like to say that I appreciate having someone to argue with again, it's been a while. :3 I hope you stay for a long while, Zenith.

If by "argue with" you mean "intelligently debate with" then thanks.

[NyteFyre]

As for Rocket Punch, making the player put a move on Abyssus that only works well if it hates your guts goes completely against the Absol line's "Dark != Evil" nature, and even goes against what you to do to get Abyssus in the first place (max happiness at night).

I thought that Absol evolved into Abyssus via the Twilight Crest?

[SilentSentinel]

That's what I thought too. If not, let's change it so it does.

[NyteFyre]

Agreed. That would at least make IB's point about Rocket Punch possible.

[ImmunityBow]

I'm pretty sure Cacturne, Absol and Murkrow all evolve with Twilight Crest. Abyssus' build around me nature is GOOD for the game IMO.

As for Gyarados/Arachmare, the point wasn't that Gyarados had a lack of STAB Physical ingame, but that it managed absolutely fine without one.

[NyteFyre]

Well, Abyssus' unofficial dex thread states that it evolves like Zenith said, Happiness at night. That needs to be changed.