I like the liar idea as a concept, since it relates so well to the "evil" side of Dark-type moves rather than just the "lack of light" that doesn't embody most of them. As XTS said, since guessing wrong means you just have to fight the trainer, eventually you'll be led to Layla in the end. People might need the experience anyway and fight everyone else first since Layla's Pokemon are pretty high-leveled.
I played through Skobeloff gym by moving my cursor along the path and changing the colour of letters as I "press" the switches. I'm pretty sure it's impossible to get stuck, but if someone sees a way, please tell me. As for Aquapolis, I'd like to have battling trainers be an option so that if you're not good at this kind of thing, you can battle the trainers. But it's so much more satisfying to figure it out. Were you able to figure it out, did you just look at the concept of it being a liar puzzle, or did you look at the spoilers?
It's not too difficult to work out mostly, because, by definition, people who say "X" tells the truth or otherwise eliminate others as liars can't be liars themselves, so that eliminates B to F totally from contention.
That leaves, G, H, I and the annoying guy. H can't be lying, because G would have to be lying, so there must be two, so A must be lying.
What I don't get is with G and I:
If G is lying, I is not lying, things work out.
If I is lying, G is not lying, things still work out.
So either one really could be lying. It doesn't matter anyway, since by now you know that A is lying, but still on principle there should be an answer.
Also, people might not realize that A is an option, and may not even realize they can go back and talk to him, which would a source of needless frustration. I think if you correctly deduce the second liar (whether it be G or I) they should say "As you probably have guessed, our leader is not who you suspect. Go back to the entrance and face your challenge." Or perhaps something even more obvious than that.
But if you talk to H, you have to assume that there is a possibility of him telling the truth, so one could assume that it is possible that, for example, that E is lying, because he says that B is telling the truth, so both could be lying.
This is how one should figure it out.
G says that either B or I are lying. B says that I tells the truth, so that means that either he's lying, making I a liar, or he's telling the truth, making I a truth-teller, so G must be lying, because they both either lie or tell the truth.
Once you accuse him of being a liar (I still don't know how we should do that. Maybe a key that isn't normally used?), he'll be forced to tell the truth (didn't think of that part until after I posted) and he will say something along the lines of "I used to be a liar, but now I tell the truth (talking about himself, not the person "I"), although others still refer to me as a liar. Both B and I are telling the truth."
If you speak to I, who you now know tells the truth, he will tell you that either G or H is lying. You know that G is a liar, so H must be the truth teller.
H says that there are two liars. Logically, he must be telling the truth. He also says that D is not a liar. If you speak to D, he says that the people next to him (i.e. to his left and his right) are telling the truth.
We've already established that B tells the truth, but now we know that F tells the truth. F says that the gym leader is disguised. Maybe he should also say that the gym leader always lies and will reveal herself if you accuse her of lying.
E says that B tells the truth, which we know to be true. The last person left is C, and he says that he can not see the gym leader from where he stands no matter which direction he faces. He also says that the people he could see by looking in different directions tell the truth (see below the spoilers). We know that B and E tell the truth, so he must be telling the truth when he says that he can't see the gym leader. Confused, people will eventually talk to the annoying guy again, or check a walkthrough.
The annoying guy says says that there is one liar, though we already know that there are two. He also says that Ghost type attacks have no effect on Dark types, which is also not true. At this point, someone will either check a walkthrough or accuse the annoying guy as lying, then Layla reveals herself. Then the battle commences.
I think the only other ways to figure it out is to look up a walkthrough or battle everyone.
I also have an edit for one of the clues:
C now says "I can not see the gym leader from here, no matter which way I face, but the people I could see (B and E) are truth tellers.
Sorry, I was looking at the wrong clues, but I've still put my thought process regarding the change below. Changing C is irrelevant, as shown in the spoiler.
Unless you count the atrociously wrong typing description (Bug is SE on Dark, Ghost is NVE on Dark, not totally ineffective), then A isn't lying. All A does is command you to find a liar. That can't ever be interpreted as a lie. Better wording would be "One person here is a liar. That person is the gym leader you must face." Also, with this edit you don't need to make C so obvious, because those who are not gym leaders are automatically truth tellers anyway.
BCDEF are obviously cleared through easy logic, I had it written out but it was erased by an accidental page change so I won't rewrite it.
Now for G, H and I:
If G is lying B and I are either both lying or both telling the truth. Both can't be lying, obviously, since B is telling the truth (and because that would make 3-4 liars). Thus, both must be telling the truth. If I is indeed telling the truth since H isn't lying G must be lying. This is a possibility.
H can't be lying because D isn't lying, so A must be lying.
if I is lying G and H are either both lying or both telling the truth. As said before both can't be lying, thus both must be telling the truth. If G is telling the truth then since B isn't lying I is lying, this also a possibility.
Now that you've changed B to say that I is telling the truth it works out, but it didn't before you changed it.
It isn't that A is lying, it's that he isn't telling the truth. He has to tell you what you're supposed to do. Him saying "That person is the gym leader you must face" is too confusing to figure out whether it's a lie or not. It is partially true, because one of the liars (him) is the gym leader, and partially false because he says that the only liar is the gym leader. I used a command because that's the only way I could think of to get the information across to the player without him technically telling the truth. We need to find some way for him to tell you what to do without telling the truth.
What easy logic did you use to rule out BCDE and F? It may not work due to the possibility of H telling the truth, therefore there could possibly be two liars. I'm guessing you used the logic of "If X says Y is telling the truth, X must be telling the truth, because if he was lying, they would both be lying", but both of them lying could technically happen because there is the possibility of two liars.
That doesn't work because A must then be a liar too, which makes for three liars. Even if you don't take A into account, it's easy enough to figure out that B is telling the truth and work from there.
No, I'm saying that to the player, there is the possibility of there being two liars. They don't know that A is one of the liars, all they know is that there is a possibility of more than one of them lying. Also, please explain the "easy logic" you used to rule out BCDE and F. I want to understand how you got to that conclusion.
Sure, the only reason I didn't explain it before was that I typed it out and lost it all by accident.
If B is lying, then I must be lying. That would mean that both G and H must be telling the truth (since otherwise there would be 4-5 liars). But that's impossible, because if both B and I are lying, then G must be lying. So B is cleared.
That clears E.
Which clears C, since both B and E are clear.
Which clears D, since if he is lying, F is lying, which would mean that both G and I are lying, which makes many liars.
Which clears F.
Only two leaps of logic there, and they're pretty quick to resolve.
I still don't quite get where you're going with A. Is A Layla because A is one of the liars, or is A Layla simply because?
No, I like all the gym designs, though many of them I'd like to actually get to playtest before handing a final verdict, since it's really hard to tell with some of them without actually mucking about in game. I wouldn't be paying as much attention to the liar one if I didn't like it, myself.
But it's still not clear what you're supposed to do. Find the liar? Why?
The main goal should be to find Layla, so the instructions should say how to find Layla:
Layla is in the room, and is a liar. Find her.
Maybe not those words exactly, but it should be along those lines.
I thought of an alternative: there can be a back room, and the door to it is locked. A says "When you find the liar, you will be able to go to the back room, where Layla is waiting." This is not true, as A is Layla, but isn't confusing as it is in no way true. Also, how should one accuse a person of being a liar, without it being obvious that you are able to accuse A? I would suggest the use of a key on the keyboard that isn't normally used. I also came up with another idea. At the end of every person's statement, they say "Keep in mind that if you accuse me as a liar, you will have to battle me." which is only true if a truth-teller says it, and is only a lie if a liar says it. Probably not a very good idea, but no harm in mentioning it, right?
That doesn't mean they don't have to be playtested. There's a lot that you can catch by playing out the gyms that you wouldn't be able to easily when just figuring out the puzzles in your head.
My friend says that the liar puzzle is too much of a copy of Legend of Zelda (to be specific, Phantom Hourglass). I disagree. Does anyone else agree with my friend?
That doesn't mean they don't have to be playtested. There's a lot that you can catch by playing out the gyms that you wouldn't be able to easily when just figuring out the puzzles in your head.
No, I'm just saying that if anyone has RPG Maker XP they could just make a playtest of only the gyms, so we could potentially test them before the demo. I'm potentially getting it next weekend (the 19th), so if no one else does, I could put something together.
Also, Tyrranigon; sure the idea isn't completely origional, but I personally like it. Also, tell your friend that if he/she wants to have a say in Topaz's gyms, then he/she should join Topaz him/herself.
I've played Phantom Hourglass, before. Didn't like it too much. And anyway, I don't remember there being any kind of speech based puzzles.
How far did you get? Did you get to the ice island (or whatever it's called) with the Anoukis? This is the puzzle: The chief of the Anoukis says that one of the other six Anoukis is lying (and is not lying himself). He wants you to find out who it is. I found the clues online.
FoFo says Gumo is honest.
Kumu says Mazo or Aroo is lying.
Dobo says Mazo is honest.
Gumo says Fofo or Aroo is lying.
Aroo says Kumu is lying.
Mazo says that he and Dobo are honest.
Yeah, I've finished phantom hourglass multiple times, so i know that puzzle pretty well. In all honesty though, LOZ is not the first to use the concept, that type of puzzle has been around for decades. It's never been in a pokemon game though, so I think we should use it.
I've beaten the whole game once. Probably just didn't remember that part well. As i said, I didn't like the game all that much, so i guess it didn't stick as well in my memory. Other games, like OOT and MM, were fun, and I remember them quite well. I love them so....
I own PH and i remember that part it was 6 people which was interesting.. As to the liar test, yes it's been done plenty of times before, i remember having to do tons of it in school for a while, nearly drove me insane cause i couldnt get it right for years.... (i finally did when i played PH though)
From what i've played of the Pokemon series no i dont think that they've ever done this anywhere in there so it would be great to have this in the game especially when dealing with the gym leader.
And as for that part with Layla being the annoying guy he could say that there is one liar in here find him. There would still be two liars but now it's very clear which ones are lying (a little) as the person at the entrance would be telling a lie and one of the other trainers would be telling a lie.
Unfortunately there's a slight problem with this particular puzzle. People who don't want to go through the trouble of finding the leader will by-pass identifying the 2 liars and just battle everyone in there until they've found the gym leader.
I actually remember when i went through the 5th gym in Diamond that i solved the problems but i forgot to go back and battle the trainers so i was in some major trouble as my pokes weren't leveled up from it, it bit me in the butt when i fought the E4 but i managed to get through alive.
I just think that something else should be set up in the gym so that you would have to (more or less) fight everyone even if you did figure out the solution.
I believe Wake's gym from PDP, and a few from RSE could also be solved without ever going through trainers.
(I'm not saying remove all alternative paths but make it so that one isn't clearly identifiable.)
Thought just occurred to me: in RSE there's a gym where it's dark inside and you would have to go through it blind till you found the leader, But if you've been through it several times you could just go visit him if without ever fighting the trainers. So how exactly would we try to make it harder for people to find the easy-to-follow alt. path once discovered?
I think the trainer should have a choice as to whether or not he or she wants to battle trainers.
Like I mentioned above (in a spoiler), I think that the annoying guy should say "If you find the liar, you will be able to challenge Layla, who is waiting in the back room." Maybe once you find out that the annoying guy is Layla, she'll go into the back room.
After you figure out the puzzle, (but before you actually challenge Layla) you can talk to the trainers. They will say "You already found Layla, so it doesn't matter whether or not I was lying. Or did you want to battle me? (show options "Yes" and "No")" I think that would work. It's better than Fuchsia gym in HG/SS (the gym where everyone is dressed as the leader and there were invisible walls). I remember once I was trying to fight everyone in the gym, but I accidentally challenged the real Janine thinking it was a fake Janine (I'm pretty sure that was her name).
After you figure out the puzzle, (but before you actually challenge Layla) you can talk to the trainers. They will say "You already found Layla, so it doesn't matter whether or not I was lying. Or did you want to battle me? (show options "Yes" and "No")"
YES. Also, I think it would be hilarious if, once you battle Layla, the back room opens up and you find that they trapped the real annoying guy back there. Then he quickly goes over types and stuff.
lmao, epic
i didnt mean to actually prevent the players from actually being forced into fighting them i just meant that something could be set up to allow an alternative path that wouldn't be quickly identified. Some of the other gyms do that iirc... (unfortunately i forget which ones did that)
yes i think the annoying guy should be trapped in the back room, change up the game a little...
I think this is a unique idea, but it might not work/be programmable. This is Gallea, BTW.
''''''''''''''''''''''''''
White space: Empty space. Player can stand here.
Brown space: Wall. Player can not stand here.
Arrows: Spinner tiles. Forces player to go in the direction of the arrow until player touches a white space.
Grey space: Darkness. Player can not stand here unless a Darkproof potion has been applied to a party Pokemon. If destroyed by a Pokemon that has had an Anti-Dark potion applied to it, player may stand here no matter what.
Red space: Fire. Player can not stand here unless a Fireproof potion has been applied to a party Pokemon. If destroyed by a Pokmeon that has had an Anti-Flame potion applied to it, player may stand here no matter what.
Dark red space: Dark fire. Player can not stand here unless a Fireproof-D potion has been applied to a party Pokemon. If destroyed by a Pokemon that has had an Anti-Flame-D potion applied to it, player may stand here no matter what.
Light blue space: Obstacle (not sure what). Player may not stand here. Can not be destroyed.
Dark blue space: Obstacle (same as above). Has exact same properties as light blue spaces, but looks the same as darkness. If attacked by a Pokemon that has had an Anti-Dark potion applied to it, this space will look the exact same as light blue space, with same properties.
A: Cauldron. Can make Fireproof potions by default.
B: Switch. When stepped on, allows cauldron to make Darkproof potions.
C: Switch. When stepped on, allows cauldron to make Anti-Flame potions.
D: Switch. When stepped on, allows cauldron to make Anti-Dark potions.
E: Switch. When stepped on, allows cauldron to make Fireproof-D potions.
F: Switch. When stepped on, allows cauldron to make Anti-Flame-D potions.
G: Bella.
List of Potions used
Fireproof: Obtained by using SURF on the cauldron and extracting the potion. If applied to a Pokemon, player may travel across three tiles of fire. May only be applied to Pokemon with SURF. Does not change battle properties of SURF. Can be sold for $10.
Darkproof: Obtained by using FLASH on the cauldron and extracting the potion. If applied to a Pokemon, player may travel across three tiles of darkness. May only be applied to Pokemon with FLASH. Does not change battle properties of FLASH. Can be sold for $10.
Anti-Flame: Obtained by using CUT and SURF on the cauldron and extracting the potion. If applied to a Pokemon, player may get rid of three tiles of fire. May only be applied to Pokemon with CUT or SURF. Does not change battle properties of CUT or SURF. Can be sold for $10.
Anti-Dark: Obtained by using CUT and FLASH on the cauldron and extracting the potion. If applied to a Pokemon, player may get rid of three tiles of darkness. May only be applied to Pokemon with CUT or FLASH. Does not change battle propertiees of CUT or FLASH. Can be sold for $10.
Fireproof-D: Obtained by using SURF and FLASH on the cauldron and extracting the potion. If applied to a Pokemon, player may travel across three tiles of dark fire. May only be applied to Pokemon with SURF or FLASH. Does not change battle properties of SURF or FLASH. Can be sold for $10.
Anti-Flame-D: Obtained by using CUT, SURF, and FLASH on the cauldron and extracting the potion. If applied to a Pokemon, player may get rid of three tiles of dark fire. May only be applied to Pokemon with CUT, SURF, or FLASH. Does not change battle properties of CUT, SURF, or FLASH. Can be sold for $10.
I got RPG Maker XP!!!! I'm trying to make a playtest of Skobeloff to get the hang of it. So far, I find it really easy. I'm having trouble making ledges though (I mean when they only let the player go one way). Does anyone have it who can help me?
That's called Pokemon Essentials, right? I got that with the move animator. I guess I should be using these tiles instead of the tiles that come with the RPG Maker :P
I think there are too many restrictions to do with the potions. You could easily make it work still if you let the FIREPROOF potion be applied on non-Surf Pokemon, what would the real difference be? You still used SURF on the cauldron. Just cut down on the unnecessary complicated bits.
As for ledges, have you tried making an object on the same level as the player (so it cannot be walked on) that if you press the right arrow key teleports you to the right of the ledge?
That's called Pokemon Essentials, right? I got that with the move animator. I guess I should be using these tiles instead of the tiles that come with the RPG Maker :P
Yes.
And teleport is an event thing, under move player.
That's not the part that I wanted to know, it's how I make that only happen when he's facing one direction. Also, that's not a problem anymore, there are ledges that come with the Pokemon Essentials that don't need any events to work.
Okay then, but it would have worked both ways anyway, at least for testing purposes. If you were on the left, you would jump to the right. You couldn't be on the top or bottom since there's just more ledge there, and if you're coming in from the right you would just stay on the same tile since that's the one you're teleporting to.
theres a move command in there for moving the character or other event, it lets u tell the event to jump, another thing is there is a directional control where u edit the tileset, i forget what it's labeled but it lets you determine whether the player can go through it in a certain direction.
as for setting it up for the character to jump when facing a specific direction (ignoring the other thing i mentioned) there's a button in there called conditional branch that u put in the event, and it will activate if the key pressed or player facing, etc. is matching. It also comes with an option to turn on/off the else handler.
Conditional branches are called If Then statements, very easy to work with (unless of course you want to add more that one option for doing anything)