Suggestions

[ImmunityBow]

If you're worried about Caldera getting everything interesting Pokemon-wise, that would be entirely untrue: there are a fair few Pokemon unique to Kirant. If it's about environments, Caldera doesn't get the mountainous forest, the caves and river valleys and the beaches of Kirant either. If it's about gym leaders, I entirely agree with you even though there is so much storyline happening down there.

I've been discussing with neon and the best idea I've seen so far is a 4-badge "half league" in Kirant. If we're creative enough we can make it fundamentally different from Caldera's league so that it isn't just a rehashed league.

Here's an idea:
What about instead of having a Champion's Tower, we nix that whole idea and scatter the E4 across Kirant? After you get your 8th badge you can start traveling across Kirant, battling the Water, Steel, Dark and Light gym leaders in an environment that actually make sense: you could place each of the E4 in one of Kirant's towns without too much trouble at all.

As for Aurora Beam, I'm uncomfortable with the idea of two 95 BP moves in one type. The Light-type actually has a lot going for it, enough not to really need a strong special move. Look at Flash, the 50 BP quick-attack powerhouse. Smite, Holy Fist and Wrath all come together to fill in a lot of the things the Light-type needs. I'd rather have this seeming unbalance than to have all types become rehashes of one another as it has started to gravitate towards this in D/P.

[Quinn]

I'm not a fan of the e4 thingy. I think that is one thing we shouldn't change. I'm for having gym leaders in Kirant, but E4 should stay as is.

[Cyndadile]

I like the E4 idea, but it kind of ruins the whole all-in-a-row thing that is the main challenge (for me, at least).

[ImmunityBow]

Why is it the one thing we shouldn't change? I don't see it being any more sacrilegious than having 12 badges. The all-in-a-row is an issue though, true.

[Cyndadile]

Well, most people have the items to restore themselves completely, so that is not a HUGE problem.

The problem is using the same Pokemon, from my point of view. For that, you could have to "register" your pokemon for the E4 Challenge, and you have to use those pokemon for it. There might be a programming problem there, though.

[neon.Barnacle]

I agree in that we shouldn't mess around with the E4. They're one of the hardest challenges in any Pokemon game, with the 5-in-a-row aspect a major part of what makes them so difficult.

I still don't think we should leave the Caldera gyms untouched. Even if we add more gyms in Kirant, that doesn't change the fact that there are 5 gyms within the first 7 cities. And with such short routes between them, the first part of the game will feel very rushed. I would rather have 8 gyms dispersed throughout Caldera and Kirant than to just add 4 more in Kirant.

[Zenith]

As for Aurora Beam, I'm uncomfortable with the idea of two 95 BP moves in one type. The Light-type actually has a lot going for it, enough not to really need a strong special move. Look at Flash, the 50 BP quick-attack powerhouse. Smite, Holy Fist and Wrath all come together to fill in a lot of the things the Light-type needs. I'd rather have this seeming unbalance than to have all types become rehashes of one another as it has started to gravitate towards this in D/P.
Well, the problem is that it keeps Special-oriented Light types from having reliable STAB moves, and non-Light Special sweepers/tanks from having a Light move for type coverage. Smite and Holy Fist are both Physical. Flash is a priority move with a base power of only 50, making it only useful for 'Mons with crazy high Sp. Attack or slow revenge killers. From the movesets I saw, Wrath is an uncommon move, and still runs the risk of missing, with only 80% accuracy.

I see that you're worried about move redundancy, but without Aurora Beam or something similar there you have a very important niche with nothing in it. Special Light doesn't have a strong-but-reliable move like Physical Light does. Wrath is the very-strong-but-innacurate move, Flash turned into the priority move, and Light Wave is the mid power move that Lights and some non-Lights learn in the 20s or 30s. Since we're creating the Light type from scratch, we have to try and fill all of the basic niches, to get it evened up with the other types.

Remember how Grass types were forced into being bulky status-inducers in Gen 1, despite whatever their stats were, because their strongest move had a charge turn that warned your opponent (whoop, he's charging his lazor, better switch in Exeggutor), their second strongest move locked you in and gave your opponent an opportunity to set up, and their strongest after that was Razor Leaf and its 55 BP?

I just don't want Special-based Lights to be forced to be revenge killers or walls. The new Aurora Beam isn't like Aqua Tail (a slightly stronger but slightly less accurate alternate option for Waterfall), it's like another Surf (the type's go to Special sweeping move--Hydro Pump is still viable, but Surf is almost always a better option).

Anyway...To be honest, I don't like the idea of spreading the E4 around Kirant. :( It ruins the challenge the E4 has in the official games, and it also ruins the spectacle of the "final boss". The Elite Four & Champion fights need to feel more epic that just gym fights or slightly-out-of-the-way trainer fights.

[Merlin]

yeah moving the e4 around would be kinda messy to work with and problematic...
though i believe a Trainer tower setup should work cause if i'm right programming that wont be hard....
unless that's being placed with the battle frontier???
anyway i'm certain we can find something for the game to work...
(if anyone cares i can explain the basic idea of how i think the trainer tower works and go from there)

[ImmunityBow]

Which leaders would we replace in Caldera though?

I guess some ideas are:
- make Mandy a non-gym leader. She's just a girl who ranges around the Eastlog and Westlog forests a lot. We see her enough anyway on sidequests. Then, we can switch around Roothaven and Hollowlog (a big dead log seems more likely to be near a swamp anyhow) to give a breather between Hanzo and Fernando. Make a new gym leader for Kirant.
- change Torrence/Tory's type and make a Water-type gym leader in Aquapolis. I'd rather not do this since Sootopolis + Wallace make this a little... deja vu.
- make a Rock-type gym leader in Sedcini City
- move Christina somehow

If we stick to 8 gym leaders I would probably be looking at 2 gym leaders in Kirant: Gerad, Christina and Osiro are all pretty well spaced.


As for Aurora Beam: what about Physical Bug? Special Ground? Physical Fire? Physical Ghost? Physical Poison?There are a lot of deficiencies in moves, that force people to build movesets around them: this is a _good_ thing, in most cases, since just "pick STAB and go" isn't always the best idea. Once you start to make changes like these (and HP Light / Light Wave will be dealing similarly to how HP Grass, HP Bug and HP Flying have been used over the years) you start to open up a large can of worms. One that has to do with entire moveset redesigns (it's not as simple as simply inserting moves in because of the web of Egg Moves that connects them all) and sets a precedent that may or may not end up working out.

[Cyndadile]

That could work.

Me from another dimention is REALLY going to like that second idea...

[Zenith]

Maybe we can make Mandy an Elite Four member, and make Layla a Gym Leader?


As for Aurora Beam: what about Physical Bug? Special Ground? Physical Fire? Physical Ghost? Physical Poison?There are a lot of deficiencies in moves, that force people to build movesets around them: this is a _good_ thing, in most cases, since just "pick STAB and go" isn't always the best idea. Once you start to make changes like these (and HP Light / Light Wave will be dealing similarly to how HP Grass, HP Bug and HP Flying have been used over the years) you start to open up a large can of worms. One that has to do with entire moveset redesigns (it's not as simple as simply inserting moves in because of the web of Egg Moves that connects them all) and sets a precedent that may or may not end up working out.
Well, 4th Gen actually helped out a lot of those types. Physical Fire gained Fire Fang and Flare Blitz. Special Ground gained Earth Power. Physical Poison gained Poison Jab and Cross Poison. Physical Ghost and Physical Bug kind of got the short end of the stick, though. The problem is, most 'Mons in those categories are low in the tier list. Here are the ones in Borderline and up:
Physical Bug: Scizor has Technician, Swords Dance, and a part-Steel typing that gives it 10 resistances and only one weakness. Heracross is one of only 7 'Mons to learn Megahorn, and the only one to get STAB from it. Forretress is a wall.
Special Ground: None. Interestingly, the only two with higher SpA than Atk are the already fundamentally bad Camerupt and Gastrodon, and the only one with them the same, Claydol, is better as support or a tank.
Physical Fire: Ho-oh's SpA is only 20 points lower (110), making it still able to take advantage of Sacred Fire. It's Uber, anyway. Infernape's Atk and SpA are the same, and it's OU because of its ridiculously big movepool. An interesting example is Flareon: it has the stats to be UU (130 Attack!), but it's stuck in NU because its best physical attack is Fire Fang. If it had Flare Blitz, its access to Wish would make it UU easily.
Physical Ghost: Giratina is a mixed attacker, and Uber. Dusknoir is barely OU, and is actually relegated to support because of its lack of a STAB move it can use! Froslass is also mixed, but is usually support (as the only Ghost that can use Spikes), and relies on Ice Beam or Hail+Blizzard for damage.
Physical Poison: Crobat is the only one, and most of its moveset don't even use any Poison attacks! The only one that does uses Sludge Bomb, because its SpA is only 20 points lower, and because it can learn Nasty Plot! Then again, this has more to do with Poison being a horrible attacking move...

Now, comparing Special Light-types as of right now:
Dolphure: Dolphure has the SpA and Spd to be a special sweeper, but lack of a strong Light move it can reliably use complicates that...it doesn't even learn Wrath. Ghosts can take advantage of this (especailly Ferrian), hitting back with Doom Scythe or Shadow Ball--not even those defenses can stop a 2HKO--as can Dionare and Raiger, able to hit Dolphure with super effective attacks without having to worry about a Light move with more than 60 BP. Hidden Power Ground would help here, but its max BP is itself 60, Dolphure doesn't get STAB from it, and none of its counters have the double weakness to keep it from being better than a 3HKO. Ice Beam gives it something against Dionare, but won't stop Ferrian or Ludicolo. All of these potential counters keep Dolphure from being a reliable sweeper.

But what about support? Dolphure has some impressive defenses, and more speed than tanks and walls normally have. Unfortunately, Dolphure is still limited there. It doesn't have access to a recovery move outside of Rest (which can only be used once, and basically requires a Chesto Berry), and Wish isn't in Topaz. It can't use dual screens, either. Fortunately, it does get a phaze (Riptide), the kind-of-useful Water Wall, and Toxic (but what doesn't?). But its lack of access to non-situational healing or a way to reduce damage that it doesn't already resist makes it an anomaly...a supporter that itself must have support.

tl;dr: Lack of certain niche moves would trap Dolphure in UU. An edited Aurora Beam is one of them.

Will hopefully get to other Special Lights later, in a different post. Real life is calling. -_-

[Cyndadile]

4th gen helped that, but we're in 3rd gen still, where 4th didn't lend a helping hand to those types.

[Zenith]

Well, Topaz's new moves have helped a little. Physical Bug is getting Bug Bite (70 BP). Physical Ghost is getting Doom Scythe (60 BP, which is lower than I remembered it being...) and Marionette (60 or 120+40 BP). Physical Poison gets Venom Strike (50 BP), which is pretty weak, but is more of a high risk support move with a little power than an attacking one, anyway. Fault Line is listed as Support for some reason, so I don't know if it's Physical or Special. Physical Fire gets Temper (85 BP, but locks you in).

...Wow...uh...that's...a bigger problem than I was expecting. Well, let me explain. While 4th Gen did introduce some redundant moves, several were made to fill in niches the types previously didn't fill, and several were created as alternatives to other moves that wouldn't work on the movesets of some 'Mons (for example, Night Slash as an alternative to Crunch, for Darks like Absol who don't have the jaws for Crunch to make sense). It seems like what Game Freak has been trying to do is use the new moves to Luigify (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DivergentCharacterEvolution?from=Main.Luigificatio n) 'Mons with similar typing and/or stats, so that they aren't as forced to be played the same.

Basically, I think what I'm trying to say is that maybe, after the demo gets out, it wouldn't hurt to do two things:
1. Look over already existing moves, see how they round out, balance some if necessary, and (more importantly) see if there are any chances we could add a limited amount of new moves or bring a few certain ones in from 4th Gen. I'm not talking about something like "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if this was in?", but something more like "Having this move exist would help the game, here are a couple reasons why." I know there aren't any plans for this right now, but once the demo gets out, maybe we can try an intelligent discussion over it? But this would mess with a lot of movesets, which brings me to my other idea.
2. I actually brought this up a while back, and several people agreed. When the demo gets out, maybe we could go over the in-game Pokemon, one evo line at a time, and listen to legitimate reasons for altering the stats of new 'Mons and movesets of all of them. Again, people would need to provide good reasons for them.

I'm not trying to shake up anything, and I'm not trying to edit stuff for the sake of editing it. I just feel like there is a real chance of improvement here. From what I looked up and what people have told me, most, if not all of the movesets were created before the Physical/Special split was implemented. Furthermore, the fact that the attack types (Physical/Special/Support) are in a different post than the new moves themselves means that either someone forgot to put them in and didn't realize it until a while later...or that the new moves were also all finalized pre-split. If we do go over them again in an intelligent way, we can make Topaz that much better.

So, that's my take on it.

[neon.Barnacle]

Why does everyone want to get rid of Mandy and keep Fernandez? Wouldn't it be easier to just scrap Fernandez? He doesn't play any part in the story at all. One of the things I'm trying to do with Topaz is to make Gym Leaders get outside their gym to help their community. Really, why go all the way and switch Roothaven and Hollowlog (which doesn't actually make any sense, since Abaddon Swamp is already next to Hollowlog) when we can easily just scrap a single gym?

[ImmunityBow]

Fernando has a really well-made name, for one :3

Also, Mandy appearing so much is one of the reasons I don't feel so attached to her. We see her tons anyway. Topaz needs more unaffiliated NPC storyline characters. Mandy feels kind of generic and hard to detach from Bugsy.

The reason to switch (my bad with the positioning of Abaddon) would be to give trainers a breather between Hanzo and Fernando. Otherwise it doesn't really change much, even geographically (you could even imagine Hollowlog's log as having been something akin to Roothaven's tree). It certainly isn't very much trouble to make the switch.

@Zenith: The thing is that what you are trying to do IS a big upheaval. If we change Aurora Beam, then all the reasons that apply to Aurora Beam apply to actually creating 12 or so new moves to fill in all sorts of necessary slots for Pokemon. That would require a massive moveset, egg move, TM list, previous gen revamp upheaval that would necessitate a ton of work. I firmly believe that not allowing some Pokemon STAB moves that suit them is a way to encourage diversity. Crobat is cooler in that it's not just "STAB, Nasty Plot, and go". Half of Dusknoir's utility is in that it got Shadow Sneak, but not Shadow Claw. Fire-types must learn to deal with a lack of good Physical Fire moves (Flare Blitz is a step in the wrong direction IMO).

I'm going to preempt you on the Special Lights thing, just to illustrate:

Dolphure: Dolphure's abilities do not require a Light-type STAB. It's absolutely unnecessary. The coverage of Dark (which Dolphure is immune to) and Ghost (which is neutral to both Water and Ice) that Light-type provides isn't what Dolphure needs. It's more likely to run Surf and Ice Beam as a special sweeper, retaining STAB. But what's actually interesting is Dolphure's ability to use Serenade to block all contact moves (almost all Physical moves) then soak up specially or use Mirror Coat. Dolphure's Riptide and Speed make it a unique Pokemon with diverse uses.

Coroona: Coroona is likely UU regardless of any Light-type STAB, though Fire is a good support for Light (SE on Grass and Steel). It still has several excellent support options, with Will o' Wisp, Morning Sun, Charm, Yawn, Purify, etc.

Sirene: I think that it's best that Sirene not have too many options for attacking, it has potential to be broken wide open with what Lapras already has to offer.

Seraph: Has Wrath, needs it for the power in any case.

Slowpriest: Arguably would enjoy STAB, but gets other toys to use such as Enlighten with excellent HP to back it up, and Purify, as well as other STAB to fall back on.

Benengil: Benengil was designed specifically to discourage attacking, as might be evident from the 3 attack moveset.

As for Fault Line, it was changed after that list was made, so it's Physical rather than Support now.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

Umm Isn't Doom Scythe a Dark move?

[SilentSentinel]

Nope, doom scythe is ghost.

[Zenith]

Fernando has a really well-made name, for one :3

Also, Mandy appearing so much is one of the reasons I don't feel so attached to her. We see her tons anyway. Topaz needs more unaffiliated NPC storyline characters. Mandy feels kind of generic and hard to detach from Bugsy.

The reason to switch (my bad with the positioning of Abaddon) would be to give trainers a breather between Hanzo and Fernando. Otherwise it doesn't really change much, even geographically (you could even imagine Hollowlog's log as having been something akin to Roothaven's tree). It certainly isn't very much trouble to make the switch.
I'm with you on this one. Taking out Mandy would also remove a type advantage for Kelvoyant (which it already has too many of) and remove a weakness for Dionare (right now, we have gyms for all five of Grass' weaknesses). But I'm still worried about the player having 4 badges only a third of the way into the game, since Froy, Therma, Hanzo, and Fernando are all in the top right of the map. While you were gone, I posted an idea for moving Hanzo to sixth, and I'll bring that up later if you're interested.


@Zenith: The thing is that what you are trying to do IS a big upheaval. If we change Aurora Beam, then all the reasons that apply to Aurora Beam apply to actually creating 12 or so new moves to fill in all sorts of necessary slots for Pokemon. That would require a massive moveset, egg move, TM list, previous gen revamp upheaval that would necessitate a ton of work. I firmly believe that not allowing some Pokemon STAB moves that suit them is a way to encourage diversity. Crobat is cooler in that it's not just "STAB, Nasty Plot, and go". Half of Dusknoir's utility is in that it got Shadow Sneak, but not Shadow Claw. Fire-types must learn to deal with a lack of good Physical Fire moves (Flare Blitz is a step in the wrong direction IMO).
Which is why it would have to be once the demo gets out. At least, it would be worth looking over movesets. I brought it up while you were gone, and the general consensus seemed to be that looking over the movesets again was a good idea. From what I've seen there are several (Arachmare & Abyssus, among others) that have serious flaws, and there are signs that a lot of them were made before the Physical-Special split was implemented in Topaz.

Well, I'm not saying we have to give everyone a bigger movepool. I guess I didn't make it very clear. It would be more so that we have the option to give them to certain 'Mons, to make them less like other ones with similar builds. For example, we have three 'Mons that are Water/Light--Dolphure, Slowpriest, and Sirene--and if one or more of them had access to Wrath or the edited Aurora Beam, the option is there for whatever 'Mon that gets it/them to be played differently than the others. And I can see why you don't want to overcomplicate things further, but there are still some gaping holes I'm worried about.

Giving Physical Fires an extremely narrow movepool (Flame Wheel and Temper, that's it) is basically dooming every Physical-based pure Fire (ie Flareon) to NU, well as ones with a second type, but no reliable moves of that type.

[ImmunityBow]

The thing is that Dolphure, Slowpriest and Sirene already play differently from one another. Dolphure has a speed advantage that greatly changes how it deals with other Pokemon, as well as Riptide. Slowpriest's arsenal of stat-boosting moves play very differently from Sirene's pure tanking.

And to be honest, the only way to get Fire-types out of NU/UU is to push them hard like Infernape and Heatran. In 4th gen, which Fire-types are seeing play besides the Ape and Heatran? The Ground/Rock/Water weak is just too devastating. Just because Physical Fires don't have an excellent STAB past Temper (which I would be fine pushing to 100 BP, since it really isn't quite worth the drawback yet) doesn't mean we can't diversify their movepools. It just has to be dabbling in different types. Most Physical Fires in 4th Gen use Fire Blast over Flare Blitz in any case, Flareon's trouble is an entire lack of good moves past Return, not just lack of STAB.

Arachmare is difficult to push because of its base stats, if I recall correctly all the movesets were done after the split, but were largely not designed competitively but more flavorfully by Ali. The idea wasn't to give each Pokemon what it needs but rather moves that fit.

Abyssus doesn't need any more pushing as is, Eclipse makes it possible Uber material already. Abyssus plays very uniquely (forming teams around his ability) which I believe is a good direction.

As for Hanzo, I would be fine moving him (Mistvale feels fine in Kirant as well) though Mistvale would need renaming.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

And to be honest, the only way to get Fire-types out of NU/UU is to push them hard like Infernape and Heatran. In 4th gen, which Fire-types are seeing play besides the Ape and Heatran?

Volcronic? :P Maybe in a later patch *hopeful*

Abyssus is gonna be powerful if played right. Calls in darkness (IIRC) and has a move that can curse foes without cutting HP.

[Zenith]

Eclipse alone won't make Abyssus Uber. TTar has Sand Stream and a BST of 600 and it's still only OU. Abomasnow is the lead for Hail teams, but its typing only lets it get as far as BL.

While Abyssus can be used as a Nightfall lead or a sweeper, it can't do either well right now. As a lead, Abyssus has Taunt, but that's pretty much it. Abyssus is even worse as a sweeper, despide having SD, because its move reliable STAB move is Bite. Umbrage is Special, and Ambush has a charge turn, and all an opponent has to do to stop it is bring out a Light type. Its type coverage is horrible--Doom Scythe doesn't get STAB and beats the same things Bite does, Slash doesn't get STAB, and it gets nothing good from TMs. Nightfall doesn't even do anything big right now besides help 'Mons with Night Vision (and who has that besides Wolvine?) or Moonlight. It can't even be a Lead/Sweeper hybrid because its defenses are mediocre and its lack of type coverage means it has a lot of counters. Right now, its ability is the only thing keeping it out of NU, lower than Absol, its prevo, has ever been in the official games.

Arachmare desperately needs Signal Beam. It's not exactly a good thing when the strongest Bug move it can learn normally is Bug Bite and its Atk is 45 points lower than its SpA. Right now, it need Signal Beam bred on it to even be viable in game, which means it's only viable when you have a male in the same breeding group that already learned Signal Beam, a female Spidream or Arachmare, and access to the day care, which isn't until almost halfway through the game! And it's just so the species can learn a move that it seems like it should already learn normally (Signal Beam makes enough sense on a mutated spider with psychic powers; Venomoth gets it in 4th Gen even though it isn't Psychic, and Dewgong gets it in FR/LG).

What's to say we can't work with some of the movesets to make them both competitive and flavorful? Maybe, instead of going through them all, we have a thread for people to suggest ones to look over again, and legitimate reasons why they could use a revamp.

[ImmunityBow]

Night time caries with it a 10-20% (the exact number wasn't confirmed) accuracy decrease for all non-Dark or Light-type Pokemon. Harskrow, Wolvine and Cackinge all benefit immensely from Night. Raiger shores up basically everything in the team. This isn't quite like Abomasnow. Also there's Rocket Punch, which can be quite potent since most Pokemon go to high happiness in competitive. To be safe, most people would probably put their happiness at about half which would give Abyssus a 90 BP STAB. It also has an excellent special movepool with a relatively decent stat to use it with. Since Egg Moves for it haven't been done yet (which is where we generally shore up some competitive flaw or give some new direction to the movesets), and the Absol revamp hasn't been done yet (which would shore up even more), you can influence this as much as you like in the revamp.

For Arachmare: I don't think ingame really counts as far as movesets go. Giving a midrange move when a Pokemon needs it, fine (Bug Bite's there, it's actually good enough for ingame), but if Gyarados can live on Thrash and Surf, surely Bug Bite is enough at least until it gets Hypnosis/Dream Eater. Arachmare doesn't really seem like the Pokemon to get Signal Beam by level up, and even then, only at levels 35+ (Where it gets Dream Eater). It's a night-time predator, it doesn't want to be flash around with beams. Dewgong has always had things like Aurora Beam, which makes the transition more natural, and Venomoth may as well be a Psychic-type, it shares so many moves with them and even learns Psybeam and Psychic naturally, I'm pretty sure.

As for little move changes that you feel need implementing, in the previous forum there was a "little corrections topic" in the Moves, Items, etc. forum for small things that didn't seem right. So, we do allow changes, one at a time, to the movesets if it feels like something is missed (for example Goldrake didn't have Pay Day for a while), though you have to make your case and have several people agree. I'm remaking the topic now.


Also, I'd just like to say that I appreciate having someone to argue with again, it's been a while. :3 I hope you stay for a long while, Zenith.

[neon.Barnacle]

To be honest I'm fine with having Fernando replace Mandy entirely, as long as the gym leader doesn't sit around all day inside the gym. There's no need to switch Roothaven and Hollowlog, or any other city really. I don't even know why you would contemplate such a messy maneuver just to reposition some gym leaders. Roothaven and Hollowlog are both suitable cities for a grass-type gym.

Anyway, it looks like we'll need to make this change in small steps. I think the first thing we'll have to decide is whether or not to increase the number of gyms. I already made an argument for a 12 gym league in one of my previous post, as well as reducing the number of gyms within the first 7 cities.


Also, I'd just like to say that I appreciate having someone to argue with again, it's been a while.

I'm going to sound like an ass but this is no place for arguing. We're trying to make a game here, and the faster we come to a consensus the better.

[NyteFyre]

Well, Arguing doe actually have benefits, in the right doses. It helps fire people up, and can bring to light certain points, and perspectives that may have been previously overlooked. It can inspire people to find the right, and most correct research, find opposing views, and over all, provide more insight, and choices for certain decisions.

However, too much arguing can be terrible. It can make some desperate enough to make-up research just to prove themselves right, or cause them to make hasty decisions. In high enough doses, it can kill the entire project, by forcing people to choose sides, and bringing everything to a standstill.

Basically, it's fine, as long as it doesn't escalade into an all out brawl.

I'd be glad to have 12 gyms, 6 in Caldera, 6 in Kirant, or whatever combination you guys come up with.

And, just to make a suggestion, I believe we shoudl take Torent, Overgrow, and Blaze off of the Starters, and replace it with something they could actually use. While the 3 are mainstays in the games series, I have to ask you this: How often do you actually make use of them? 2, maybe 3 times throughout the entire game? They do nothing in the overworld, don't do much for competitive teams, and are sort of never used...Since this is a fan game, why stick to tradition with Abilities? We aren't doing this for other parts, so why on this?

[Zenith]

(I know about the new thread. Just wanted to make these counterpoints here.)


Night time caries with it a 10-20% (the exact number wasn't confirmed) accuracy decrease for all non-Dark or Light-type Pokemon. Harskrow, Wolvine and Cackinge all benefit immensely from Night. Raiger shores up basically everything in the team. This isn't quite like Abomasnow. Also there's Rocket Punch, which can be quite potent since most Pokemon go to high happiness in competitive. To be safe, most people would probably put their happiness at about half which would give Abyssus a 90 BP STAB. It also has an excellent special movepool with a relatively decent stat to use it with. Since Egg Moves for it haven't been done yet (which is where we generally shore up some competitive flaw or give some new direction to the movesets), and the Absol revamp hasn't been done yet (which would shore up even more), you can influence this as much as you like in the revamp.
The problem still stands for Abyssus only being useable on teams based around him. As for Rocket Punch, making the player put a move on Abyssus that only works well if it hates your guts goes completely against the Absol line's "Dark != Evil" nature, and even goes against what you to do to get Abyssus in the first place (max happiness at night). Add in how much easier it is to gain happiness than it is to lose it, and it loses its practicality.

Umbrage is a strong attack, and 90 Base Sp. Attack is pretty good, but it pales in comparison to 135 Base Attack, and the ability to basically turn that into 270 with a single Swords Dance. With that, even Bite is more worth using than Umbrage.

Absol is a born sweeper. It just wouldn't be right to take the ability to reliably do that away. ...Maybe a second ability would work toward that...


For Arachmare: I don't think ingame really counts as far as movesets go. Giving a midrange move when a Pokemon needs it, fine (Bug Bite's there, it's actually good enough for ingame), but if Gyarados can live on Thrash and Surf, surely Bug Bite is enough at least until it gets Hypnosis/Dream Eater. Arachmare doesn't really seem like the Pokemon to get Signal Beam by level up, and even then, only at levels 35+ (Where it gets Dream Eater). It's a night-time predator, it doesn't want to be flash around with beams. Dewgong has always had things like Aurora Beam, which makes the transition more natural, and Venomoth may as well be a Psychic-type, it shares so many moves with them and even learns Psybeam and Psychic naturally, I'm pretty sure.
For one, GF remedied the Gyarados problem in 4th Gen by giving it Aqua Tail at 35. For two, they couldn't reliably do that before 4th Gen, because before then all Water attacks were Special. Couldn't we at least make it a Tutor move, to make it easier to get than breeding for it?


Also, I'd just like to say that I appreciate having someone to argue with again, it's been a while. :3 I hope you stay for a long while, Zenith.
If by "argue with" you mean "intelligently debate with" then thanks.

[NyteFyre]

As for Rocket Punch, making the player put a move on Abyssus that only works well if it hates your guts goes completely against the Absol line's "Dark != Evil" nature, and even goes against what you to do to get Abyssus in the first place (max happiness at night).

I thought that Absol evolved into Abyssus via the Twilight Crest?

[SilentSentinel]

That's what I thought too. If not, let's change it so it does.

[NyteFyre]

Agreed. That would at least make IB's point about Rocket Punch possible.

[ImmunityBow]

I'm pretty sure Cacturne, Absol and Murkrow all evolve with Twilight Crest. Abyssus' build around me nature is GOOD for the game IMO.

As for Gyarados/Arachmare, the point wasn't that Gyarados had a lack of STAB Physical ingame, but that it managed absolutely fine without one.

[NyteFyre]

Well, Abyssus' unofficial dex thread states that it evolves like Zenith said, Happiness at night. That needs to be changed.

[SilentSentinel]

Changed.

If everyone is super worried about Abyssus having attacking problems, we could do what someone said earlier and have Ambush lose it's charge turn during darkness. It makes sense considering that it's easier to sneak up and pounce on someone at night.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

^ I'm for that.

[Zenith]

^^Seconded. But we'd need to reduce Ambush's BP to 100-120, to put it on par with Solarbeam, etc.


Well, Abyssus' unofficial dex thread states that it evolves like Zenith said, Happiness at night. That needs to be changed.That's what confused me.

Now that I think about it, Doom Scythe gives Abyssus a way of hitting the Light types that are immune to Ambush. But it only curses 10% of the time, and the curse can be switched out of. And Abyssus still needs a way of hitting Steel types.


And, just to make a suggestion, I believe we shoudl take Torent, Overgrow, and Blaze off of the Starters, and replace it with something they could actually use. While the 3 are mainstays in the games series, I have to ask you this: How often do you actually make use of them? 2, maybe 3 times throughout the entire game? They do nothing in the overworld, don't do much for competitive teams, and are sort of never used...Since this is a fan game, why stick to tradition with Abilities? We aren't doing this for other parts, so why on this?
I would definitely be for this, as long as the replacement abilities are good. Those abilities always were kind of generic, and out of all of the starters so far, Empoleon is the only one that can really use any of them.

[SilentSentinel]

Actually, Blaziken and Feraligatr make use of their abilities quite well in competitive play, especially when Blaziken runs a Reversal set. I'm not super in favor of changing them, but if you guys can think of something cool then I'd consider it.

[NyteFyre]

That was then. I was thinking we could change them so that they can maybe have 2 abilities, like Kelvoyant can get like Flash Fire, and I dunno, Synchronize or something. Dolphure could get Water Veil, and Aura Absorb/whatever the Topaz version of that is. Dionare could get....Pressure is too often used, and Super Luck won't work....Umm....Maybe...Effect Spore, and...Umm....Eclipse Veil? I think that's an ability.

/goes to check

Edit: Yeah, gonna change those to Night Vision, and maybe Intimidate. Dionare is pretty intimidating, wouldn't you say?

[ImmunityBow]

You mean on the site? Because the forum topic says otherwise (http://www.pokemontopaz.net/forums/showthread.php?311-Abyssus&).

[NyteFyre]

Ehh, that's probably because RP just changed it not too long ago. He said so on the first post of this page. :\

[Zenith]

Wait, Water Veil on Dolphure is useless. Why would anyone want to burn something so Special-based?

[NyteFyre]

Well...Maybe...Swift Swim?

[Quinn]

Possibiltiy: Changes DEFINETLY WELCOME

Froy
Type: Fire
Location: Cranewing City

Therma
Type: Flying
Location: Softwind City

Fernando
Type: Grass
Location: Roothaven/Hollowlog City

Name:
Type: Psychic
Location: Laysan Town

Name:
Type: Water (:D)/Ground
Location: Gallea City

Name: Layla (Yes, I really like Zeneth’s, “Dark isn’t evil” thingy)
Type: Dark
Cetacea City

Name:
Type: Rock
Sedcini City

Name:
Type:
Collossus City

Gerald
Type: Electric
Location: Dynamo Gardens

Christina
Type: Ice
Location: Frost Town

Hanzo(?)
Type: Ghost(?)
Mistvale City

Osiro
Type: Ground
Location: Saharan City






E4
Name: Bob (Jk)
Type: Poison/Normal (yes...I did say normal. Its way underused)

Mandy
Type: Bug

Torry
Type: Water

Tristian
Type Light

Vincent (Champion)
Type: Mix

Johto Gyms

Jasmine
*the muscle dude. Cant remember :P Wife thinks he chubby. Cianwood.

------------------
I'm completely with Zeneth on a possible Rehaul. Maybe add some more moves (saw come cool ones, like the never forgetting, acid rain *wasn't it physical poison we needed though?, along with Volcronic *name change, and Fault line) Of course, after this "demo" is released. (whenever that will be...) A complete REHAUL. Sounds scary...but might be an idea.

Still like Bug >Light idea.
light to bug....sad thing is I remember doing that to alot more than bugs ;)

Like Ambush idea.

Neon Map = wants confirmation or denial...but likes confirmation better.

Still love cheats idea(most after e4, but maybe a shiny one for "creators" and people here ;)) (since its mine and MLE's) though, they shouldn't be too hard to get. Unknown or braile, or maybe our own thingy? Not like that Base64. I have no idea what the hell that even is.

Some underwater change still.
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/quintinbruderer/Topaz/New-Under.gif
that was just a Prototype. Maybe HGSS water look on the underwater. (Go to your local swimming pool...dive to the bottom, and tell me what you see?)

Like idea for abilties, though not for 2 together. One OR the other is different.

If we choose to keep with one...I think...
(basing off of nyte)
K: Flash Fire
Di: Intimidate/ Eclipse
Do: Light Absorb

[Reliability]

The ocean and a swimming pool are fundamentally different. A pool is clean, not very deep and with a white bottom, which allows the water to pass through the water and reflect the wave pattern. The ocean is much deeper, darker and dirtier, so the same rule wouldn't really apply. It does look different from anything else I've seen, but it just wouldn't be possible.

The gym leaders look fine, but if we need to cut some to make 8, there are some that can be lost.
Chuck is the name you're looking for.
I don't want to mess with the traditional starter abilities. IIRC, the stats of the starters are pretty high, which makes up for the difficulty of activating their abilities.

Could we use Chuck and Jasmine for part of the "half-leauge" if that's what we decide?

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

along with Volcronic *name change
Whaat?


Like Ambush idea.
I support it to.


Still love cheats idea(most after e4, but maybe a shiny one for "creators" and people here ;)) (since its mine and MLE's)
I resent that!


Also, if we'd kept Foldicrane it'd been the perfect excuse to make cranewing a normal type gym :P. Hell, do it anyway and have the theme be origami.

[Zenith]

Could we use Chuck and Jasmine for part of the "half-leauge" if that's what we decide?
They're already part of the Johto League. Why would they be in a different one as well?

[ImmunityBow]

Okay, some of this discussion needs some conclusion:

Starters aren't getting any other ability. Their abilities are fine, they're useful once in a while and there's no _actual_ reason to change them. I don't think anyone particularly hates having a powerful boost at 33% HP. That's final.

Please don't mess around with the E4, they went through an extremely arduous selection process, one that I don't want to revisit. Gym Leaders, maybe, E4, absolutely not.

Bug>Light is really iffy for me, considering that many bugs are nocturnal and others attracted to light (which often leads to their doom). Light-type is underpowered, we don't need to shaft them any more. Bug does have uses: it has two excellent resists (Ground, Fighting) and some decent type coverage (Psychic, Dark, Grass) which is difficult to find elsewhere. It's only when it's paired with Flying, which only compounds a strengths it already has (Immune to Ground, 4x Fighting) yet exacerbates all of its flaws (Ice, Electric, Fire, Rock) that the typing sucks.

Ambush, I'm fine with making stronger, it's relatively useless as is, it's true. As for Abyssus needing a way to hit Steel-types, it hits Forretress for lethal damage with 90 base Sp. Atk Flamethrower, it doesn't really need another way. It would probably still use Flamethrower even if it did have a strong Fire-attack option.

To make the whole gym leader thing a little simpler, I'm going to go ahead and say we'll make a 4 badge league for Kirant until further discussion proves that this is a bad idea. Normal, Bug, Rock and another type (Dragon or Ice are free) might be good places to start.

[neon.Barnacle]

How many times do I have to say it? There are five gyms within the first seven cities. I don't care how many gyms we decide on, or if we create a separate Kirant league, but the cluster**** of gyms at the beginning of the game NEEDS to be fixed. I've already brought up this point numerous times, but perhaps I simply wasn't loud enough since nobody bothered to give any counterarguments. I can only hope that I can elicit some responses this time.

If - and that's a big if - we were to change the starter abilities, we should make them completely unique. I simply won't support getting rid of the trademark starter abilities for some whored-out ones like Blaze or Intimidate.

IB is right on the Bug>Light thing, Light as a whole is worse off than Bug, especially with the absence of Stealth Rock.

[NyteFyre]

I never really liked the idea of Bug beating light, and light is already pretty shafted as it is.

Blaze is a starter Ability, Neon. :| Also, I never really like the starter ones. I'm with you for making them completely unique, though I'm not creative enough to actually come up with said ability.

I Agree, We need to Move and/or change at least a few of those first 5. I just don't know enough about the Route layout to say much else, I'm afraid. :\

[SilentSentinel]

I wasn't arguing for Bug>Light, I was arguing for Poison>Light for the record. The metagame needs to be balanced if we are going to add a new type.

[Zenith]

And I suggested moving Mandy to the Elite Four. That way, she could show up in the plot, and end up being more than just some random NPC. If Baro got anything right with Quartz, it was having the player run into the E4 before knowing they were E4 members.

Giving Layla a gym just happened to really go with my idea for a Dark gym, especially if the name really does mean "night".

Agreeing with having Poison beat Light. Poison's even more underpowered that Light is right now. Of course, we need to balance Light out somehow...not sure what to have it beat, but we could take away Steel's resistance to it...

[ImmunityBow]

Poison received the item Corrosive Acid, which makes it normally effective against Steel. Poison is extremely underpowered as an attacking type, and only as a defensive type because of the horrid Ground weak. Poison-types are good enough to be high-UU and even OU/BL if they have some way of getting around that Ground weak (Gengar, Crobat). And our reasoning for Light being immune to Dark was that it was too pure to be corrupted by Dark (and in Pokemon, Dark IS generally evil, at least in terms of moves (Pursuit, Snatch, Thief, Umbrage, Torment, Taunt)). So now it can be tainted by Poison? I don't think so.

I don't know about Mandy. It's a good idea to have E4 members showing up early but Mandy is so... generic. I don't know. The E4 we have seem like they could be more mature and experienced than the Gym Leaders, I'm not very sold on shifting them around. We could have the E4 members showing up elsewhere regardless.

As for neon, I'm pretty sure at various points we have been discussing how to reduce the early clump of gym leaders. As I've said before, I'm okay with moving Hanzo and Mandy. I feel like the others should stay where they are though. If required move Mistvale to some place in the south of Caldera in the middle of nowhere, only accessible by Kirant, or a small island between them. That way you have a way to stick a Gym Leader in the middle of the drought. If needed we could even move Mt. Mist there so that the whole Mist/Ninja/different culture thing even makes sense. (It'd be isolated like Japan)

[Quinn]

yes neon, I for one heard you. Didn't you see my general gym lineup? Hanzo is like 8th or something, and at the beginning, there is only like 3. Cranewing, then Softwind, then Roothaven/Hollowlog.

I think me and zeneth are the only ones sold on the dark thing :P

[Merlin]

yes i agree with the too many gyms in begining but i cant think of anything outside of making the character go back later after recieving x# of badges...

and as for the Johto gyms set up for the johto league it's only for the games but you're allowed to have 8 gym badges from any 8 gyms to take on the e4 otherwise you'd be stuck going into kanto in gsc before fighting the e4
though it wouldn't hurt to find some way of letting the character take on those gyms without havign to go thru the whole kanto and/or johto league...
about the abilities i do think the starters should get something else even if it is a second ability so that people can have better starters....
if nothing else set it up so that the starter itself uses the original and then set it up so that the pokemon bred from the original have a better chance at getting the second ability

[Zenith]

And our reasoning for Light being immune to Dark was that it was too pure to be corrupted by Dark (and in Pokemon, Dark IS generally evil, at least in terms of moves (Pursuit, Snatch, Thief, Umbrage, Torment, Taunt)). So now it can be tainted by Poison? I don't think so.
I was going off the idea that most good guys in stories and stuff can see and stop obviously evil people and actions (Dark type, in this case), but all but the best heroes were vulnerable to slowly being corrupted from the inside (a la Poison). It's been used as a plot pretty often.


I don't know about Mandy. It's a good idea to have E4 members showing up early but Mandy is so... generic. I don't know. The E4 we have seem like they could be more mature and experienced than the Gym Leaders, I'm not very sold on shifting them around. We could have the E4 members showing up elsewhere regardless.
Well, the Gym Leaders and Elite Four are all League members, so they would all have a lot of competitive experience. How tough they are when someone fights them in official League matches depends on (for Leaders) how many badges you currently have; the E4 are especially hard because they're part of the final test to going pro.

The main reason I want to switch Mandy and Layla is because we already have Fernando, and Grass and Bug share two weaknesses and a resistance. There hasn't been a single Dark gym yet in the canon games, so having one in Topaz would give it more individuality. Furthermore, we would be taking out a Gym that the Venap line is weak to (right now, there are Gyms for all five of Grass' weaknesses), and the Celsinge line beats (which currently has four advantages, five with Kelvoyant, and only one weakness, which is so late it barely matters) with a gym that Dionare resists and Kelvoyant is weak to. Giving Layla's gym a Dark Is Not Evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarkIsNotEvil) theme would make it less cliche, and give it more character (Layla's name meaning "Night" especially helps).

[NyteFyre]

I'm actually seeing and understanding your points, Zenith, and I am for it!

[ImmunityBow]

I get them, but the big thing that's putting me off is the thought of Mandy in the E4. I really dislike that thought: she's a little girl, her character is totally unsuited to waiting around in a tower for challengers to appear. And she works fine as Kirant Gym Leader if needed, too.

[neon.Barnacle]

Let's think a bit broader, guys.


How about just scrapping Mandy? Nobody except me seems to want her as a gym leader, and I do agree that she's too similar to Bugsy. I don't want her in the E4 either, because like IB said she's only a little girl, and I'm also tired of seeing bug types in the E4 already. Finally, I don't see her as being a good NPC either since her role in the plot is minimal at best.


In short: scrap Mandy, replace her role in Hollowlog with one of the E4. There, problem solved.


Also, I do want to see a dark-type gym in this game, so what we could do is move Layla to one of the new gyms in Kirant and put someone else in her place in the E4.


To go along with my ideas, I also suggest scrapping Hanzo entirely. Ninjas are kind of overused anyway.

[Quinn]

1. I'm for that. ish. Either way, it doesn't really matter to me. My q is though, who would replace her in the E4? Light wouldn't work.

2. Zeneth and I have been trying to get that for some time now. Finally there is another view.

3. WATER GYM IN MISTVALE!!!

[neon.Barnacle]

By "scrapping Hanzo entirely" I'm also implying that Mistvale won't have a gym anymore. I want to remove 2 gyms from the early 5, so with the suggested configuration it'll be only Froy, Therma and Fernando before the player sets foot in Kirant.

[Quinn]

With the excpetion that my idea had Hanzo later, that was the same thing I thought.

*come on people...look at my stuff. Its kinda a slap in the face to hear suggestions that I already stated...generally.

[neon.Barnacle]

I was only responding to your WATER GYM IN MISTVALE!!! comment. Yes, I did read your previous posts suggesting to move Hanzo to a different city. If you were also implying then that Mistvale shouldn't have a gym then I agree with you.

[Quinn]

so...I think we are set with 3 starter leaders (this isn't confirmed. this is just by reading)...now should we continue?

[neon.Barnacle]

I'm still waiting to hear more opinions, but if we move on then the next step would be to determine exactly how many gym leaders we want. Once that's figured out, we can go about deciding on their gym themes and assigning them to cities.

[Merlin]

so here's a thought about Mandy...
remember Pearl and Diamond with Cheryl in the forest and the girl on victory road after the e4?
they weren't connected to the main storyline so why not do the same thing with Mandy by making her something similar to that?
i believe there were other characters in RSE, GSC, and FRLG that did that too i just don't remember who...(FRLG--girl on 3 island dealing with drowzee--wasn't part of main storyline and you could go there after e4 or before e4 if you wanted)

although if we have to scrap mandy that's ok i just figured we could try and save her for whoever it was that originally created her...

and yes get rid of the bug e4 members cause they're everywhere just about...

[NyteFyre]

I'm fine with all of those suggestions, Neon. And yes, Ninja's are over used.

[ImmunityBow]

But Hanzo's got a sprite D: . But sure, if we get another cool gym leader sprite we can scrap him.

Also, I'd like to recall the idea of putting another city on the southern part of Caldera that's only accessible from Kirant. That way you have some Caldera in the middle of the whole Kirant plotline.

I have another idea for the Kirant league. Why not, instead of basing them off of types, base them off of a theme? That way it seems different from an actual gym league. Also, people have been trying to put this into Gyms and E4 for ages, this is a chance to do something different.

If everyone is for Layla as a gym leader, then fine, I guess. A Normal-type E4 is fine as well, I guess (There are lots of good Normals around, Cunning Persian, Tauros, Miltank, etc.)

[Quinn]

or if he doens't look ninja like, we could revamp him to a new base.

*idk what you mean by "theme"

I like that last part. 2 strong things. The dark isn't evil, along with a Normal E4.

[SilentSentinel]

Theme could be anything really, from "smart pokemon" to "spreading status then attacking" like that one Elite 4 guy that PokePoindexter always wanted to put in. It's better than types imo.

[ImmunityBow]

Definitely not "spreading status then attacking" as a theme, though working around status effects could work (moves like Toxic, Facade, Venom Strike, Sleep Talk, Cascade, Smellingsalts etc.)

I was more thinking of themes such as "steam" and "pollution", but anything goes, really, as long as there's four strong themes for each that seem to go well together.

[Zenith]

I dunno. Basing a required gym on some possibly vague theme could easily come off as amateurish. Maybe we could have some kind of optional side league that does that, that's trying to gain reputation during the events of the story. We could have the official C/K League, with two gyms still in Kirant, and have four of these gyms as a side quest.


A Normal-type E4 is fine as well, I guess (There are lots of good Normals around, Cunning Persian, Tauros, Miltank, etc.)
Elite Four Whitney? Shit!

Wait, Topaz does take place around 20-25 years after the canon games, right? That might actually work...

[ImmunityBow]

Yeah, that's what I mean Zenith, though it's more of a powerful impact if there's a Caldera League and a Kirant Half-Alternate-League-Thing. If there must be C/K league gyms on Kirant though, due to spacing issues, so be it.

So, any ideas as to justifying why there'd be 4 separate gyms? Neon said it'd be kind of dumb to have another league that's basically just the Pokemon League, but I believe it's fine as long as we differentiate them enough.

[Reliability]

Well, instead of being "gyms" towards a league, we could instead use them to serve as a side quest thing. I don't know how many of the one-off Pokemon have solid placements, but we could have it so that after collecting badges (or something else, to separate it entirely from the gym concept) you will be given access to an area that contains one of the one-off's.

But since we're moving things around anyway, it opens up the possibility of leaving it at 8 gyms and simply dispersing them. But I am a fan of ditching Mandy and Hanzo, at least in the city he's in. IIRC, the sprite in generic enough that a few edits could turn him into something else, perhaps the E4 member slot that will be opened up by Layla leaving.

[neon.Barnacle]

Instead of thinking of the Kirant league as a "side league", why not just use the concept of a "double-league challenge"? In order to access the E4, you have to prove yourself by beating both leagues. This would work perfectly if each region had 6 gyms, then the leagues would be symmetrical. I guess a 6-4 league would work as well, but I like me some symmetry.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

^ That

[ImmunityBow]

I just feel it's difficult to find really good environments for the Kirant gym leaders. For 6 gym leaders of different types, that'd be kind of difficult, wouldn't it? All of the Caldera gym leaders have cities that reflect their philosophies and typing, for Kirant it's not as easy.

[NyteFyre]

Well, maybe the landscape could influence their choices, kinda like in DPPt.

[Reliability]

Current suggested leaders -- 6 in Caldera, 1 w/o location
Froy -Fire (Cranewing)
Therma -Flying (Softwind)
Fernando -Grass (Roothaven)
Gerad -Electric (Dynamo)
Christina -Ice (Front Town)
Osiro -Ground (Saharan)
Layla- Dark (???)

[there are only 6 types left because 12 types are now for gym leaders, 4 for the E4 and we aren't using Poison or Bug, winch brings us to 18, the number of types in Topaz]

Where Each Type Could Go ---all but bolded for E4 slot
Fire -locked in Cranwing (b/c of demo)
Flying -locked in Softwind (b/c of demo)
Grass - Roothaven, Hollowlog, Laysan
Electric - seems necessary for Dynamo Gardens
Ice - seems necessary for Frost Town
Ground - fits too well into Saharan
Dark - Mistvale, Ichthyes
Rock - Enechestra, Sedcini
Psychic - Mistvale, Icthyes, Kalypso
Fighting - Mistvale, Kalypso
Ghost- Colossus, Icthyes, Roothaven
Normal- Cetacea, Kalypso
Dragon- Cedsini

Now, the point of getting rid of Hanzo was to not use Mistvale as a gym city, therefore here are my recommendations for the two leagues:

Caldera
Fire- Cranewing
Flying- Softwind
Ghost -Roothaven [it's a "spiritual place," but I don't know how many ghost pokemon we have to work with]
Electric -Dynamo
Ice -Frost Town
Ground -Saharan

Kirant
Fighting -Kalypso [dance master gym leader=elegant martial arts]
Grass -Laysan [Berries]
Normal -Cetacea [No real rationale, just seemed to fit]
Psychic -Icthyes [Cheats at gambling]
Dragon -Sedici [mountain=dragons]
Rock - Enechestra [Shells, but we could use Portwind in a pinch]

And Layla can have her E4 spot back

[SilentSentinel]

Hmm, I actually really like those as the types for the most part.

[NyteFyre]

I'd still like to see Layla as a Gym leader, but I do like your ideas as well, Reli.

[Reliability]

If you really want, the psychic leader and Layla can be switched, since my rationale is basically the same for both of their types.

[NyteFyre]

That works! Psychic is a little over done in my opinion.

[Zenith]

I dunno about some of those. The canon games generally use Gyms that fit the geography the town is around. That's okay, but basing them off of the personality of the town, or a vague idea related to it, isn't. For one, the reputation of a city changes over time, and most of these gyms have presumably been there for a while. If Ichtyes has a Psychic gym based on the idea of cheating at the casino, or a Dark gym because of the city's bad rep, we would basically have to run with that idea for the Gym, and why would the League build an official Gym around a concept like that? Not to mention that the canon generations so far have had three Rock and three Fighting gyms, and no Dark ones.

[ImmunityBow]

I'm also not seeing a Ghost gym so early in the game. There are a lot of Normal-type moves early in the game, and basically no light-types (Unless Whispaw gets Shine earlier, or Mareep/Echoise are trained to level 30+) or dark-types (Venap might have Bite by then).

[neon.Barnacle]

I am against the idea of having gyms in Icthyes and Cetacea, because they're where the TR and OD headquarters are situated, and gyms would feel awkward there.

[STT]

Remember Pryce? GSC gym in TR HQ city.

[Reliability]

Well once again, the geography of many of the cities is either underspecified or simply not there. And, if we want to avoid using Icthyes and Cetacea as well as incorporate 6 gym into Kirant, we need to revamp some of the city concepts so that something in the their geography or at least their 'culture' can incorporate a gym type or gym leader lifestyle.

If we want to avoid having the ghost gym so early, I'd move a new gym into Mistvale and leave Roothaven Gym-less. I'd like to keep grass in Laysan since it fits pretty nicely there and I don't see anything else going in Roothaven (again, unless the description I updated with something else)

[ImmunityBow]

That'd be 3 gym leaders really quick, then a long gap before Kalypso/Laysan though.

We could always have a Bug leader that just isn't Mandy.

[neon.Barnacle]

Everyone seems to have forgotten that a gym can be the same type as an E4 member, as seen in GSC with Lance/Claire, as well as in Emerald with Juan/Wallace.


Anyway, I'm not too concerned about what the gym types are, but more of the gym distributions among the cities. After looking over the map carefully, this is what I propose for the gym cities, in the order which the gyms become available:

Kalypso City - A gym here is fine, since Hollowlog is now missing one. Normal works best here, imo. Fighting is good as well.

Portwind City - A good length away from Kalypso, but this is the ideal spot for Kirant's second gym. Fighting fits well here. Other potential types are Dark, Water, Normal, or Psychic.

Sedcini City - Since Sedcini Cave is the location for an Orion/Rocket dispute, we can incorporate the Sedcini gym leader in the plot somehow. Potential types are Rock, Steel, and Dragon.

Laysan Town - This gym is not open initially, but will be after the events in Sedcini, where the player can easily reach it through Cetacea. Grass seems obvious, but since Roothaven already has that type, Normal could work as well.

Enechestra City - This gym will also be closed until after certain conditions are fulfilled. Good place for a gym since Enechestra is the gateway to Colossus and the west side of Caldera. We can have our Dark type gym here, but Enechestra is such a generic city that any type could work here. And because the city's so generic, we can reshape its theme and history based on the type we choose.

Aquapolis City - Nobody has actually suggested this city for a gym location yet, most likely because the most associated type would be Water, which is already used in the E4. However, as I said further up in my post, gym types can coincide with E4 types. The gym also doesn't have to feature Water as its theme: Steel (it's a man-made underwater city), Dragon (most dragons reside in the ocean), and Dark (pretty dark on the ocean floor) are all potential types.


And that's my two cents. I really think this is the optimal setup for gym locations, at least in terms of gameplay.

[Merlin]

well that actually sounds really good...
and yes if you do stop yourself from being able to use the same type as a gym and an e4 it'll really mess up and really slow down production on the game...

[ImmunityBow]

Potentially brilliant brainwave:

Since the HERO can train his Pokemon so well with the time he's given, why can't a gym leader?

What if Tristan (Light-type E4) were a gym leader? He improves after you beat him, then ousts one of the E4 somehow (how do they get chosen anyhow?) and then you fight him again in the E4, with improved/changed Pokemon. Then, after you beat the E4, Bradley will settle down and take Tristan's place as a Light-type gym leader.

E4 that appears earlier, natural progress, AND storyline character development! The cherry on top: we can reuse his sprites!

[Cyndadile]

I like it.


The cherry on top: we can reuse his sprites!

Hmm. That's the best part?

[NyteFyre]

That is the most BRILLIANT Idea ever, IB!

[Cyndadile]

You forget peanut butter. But it is definitly a close second. :D

[Zenith]

Interesting idea. It always seemed like the Gym Leaders and Elite Four were on the same level in the League, and just applied for positions where they were available. We could still run with that, though. During the events of the game, an Elite Four member retires/resigns/gets fired and Tristan (or another Gym Leader) takes their place in the E4. You fight that person once as a Gym Leader, before the E4 member leaves, and again when he/she/whatever is made an Elite Four member. Then Bradley could take that member's old Gym postgame, after he has beaten the E4+1 himself. He wouldn't even have to use the same type, as long as it isn't already being used. The problem is, why would they let a guy that just went pro become a Gym Leader. I mean, the Kanto League let Blue do it, but it's probably a lot more complicated by the time Topaz takes place.

There were overlapping types in G/S/C because two leagues used the same Elite Four. There would have to be overlap. And Emerald did it in an attempt to be different from R/S.

Problem is, we still have to factor in the number and rarity of 'Mons of each type. We have 17 Light types, but most of them are evolved, legendary, one-offs, or really rare in general. You also have to remember that the gyms have multiple trainers, with their own varying teams, in addition to the Gym Leader. We would have to make the Light gym late, and that doesn't give us much time for us to mention that an Elite Four member retired/resigned/got the hook. In addition, Tristan will still be fresh in the player's mind, and his presence in the E4 wouldn't be as much of a surprise, as the player had fought him recently.

[Cyndadile]

If Bradley is the champion, after you defeat him he could become the gym leader.

[SilentSentinel]

Vincent is the champion if I remember. This is just an idea, but what if we scrap Christina and have the old e4 person be a member of one of the teams? That person could retire from the e4 after the Jirachi conflict, and would let us reuse their sprite too.

[ImmunityBow]

That could work too. Christina is also one of those not-so-inspirational characters.

Also, Zenith, there are a few Pokemon who are not Light by type but rather Light by nature, such as Ampharos and Phantasomo. They would work well in fleshing out a Light-type gym leader's or E4 member's team.

[Zenith]

Aren't we making Ampharos Electric/Light? And isn't Phantasomo already part Light?

And the problem is that so many of the Light 'Mons are either really rare or the second or third form in a line. Because ones like Dolphure, Corrona, Illumbra, etc. are all final forms we can't use them in an earlier Gym, and ones like Engil, Purior, Blitzfaust, etc. are all rare, we can't just give them to several trainers in a Gym. Basically, a Light Gym would be hard to do, while having Tristan in the Elite Four wouldn't be a problem. Could we do something with a different Leader?

Having a Rocket or Orion member as the 7th Gym Leader, depending on what side you're on? Unless the player directly affects that person becoming Leader there, it makes no sense for that to happen, when you think about it.

Vincent as Champion...it just seems...cliche since R/B/G/Y did it. I mean, having a rival as the "final boss" would come off as doing it because 1st Gen did it. We need to really pull someone out of left field, but in a way that makes the reveal really awesome. I had an absolutely amazing idea, but we can't use it...the Rattata line isn't in the C/K 'Dex...

[SilentSentinel]

Phantasomo is Psychic/Ghost, but also get Light Wave. I thought there was some talk about making Ampharos Electric/Light, Togepi Light, and Togetic Light/Flying, but I don't remember if it was ever officialized or not.

[Reliability]

Based on neon's order/suggestions and the want to re-use Tristan in a light gym:

Kalypso City - Fighting
Portwind City - Light (What I envisioned is sort-of a twin lighthouse to the one in Olivine, which could double as the gym. There are all kinds of cool things we could do with the elevators for a gym puzzle as well)
Sedcini City - Dragon
Laysan Town - Normal
Enechestra City - Psychic, Ghost or Rock
Aquapolis City - Dark

That only doubles two of the E4, unless someone still wants Layla out, in which case we can substitute in a new type if we want.

[ImmunityBow]

Reliability: The Lighthouse idea is a good one.

Zenith: Ampharos is pure Electric, Phantasomo is Psychic/Ghost. But both have light tendencies. Also, Togepi/Togetic are being changed to Light and Light/Flying, and a case could be made for Clefairy, though we decided to stick with normal there because of its nocturnal habits and moon-based nature. As for trainers in a gym, there could be a sort of "sun theme" going on that could replicate the Light-type without straying too far into the Light Pokemon themselves. Tropius is one of such Pokemon that feels right at home in a Light-type gym. Especially if it's a later gym, then we are given more permission to deviate from the type, and if it's earlier there would be fewer trainers and thus fewer Pokemon to deal with anyway. In any case, Dragon-type gyms and E4 in the past have used Gyarados and Aerodactyl, which are not Dragon-type, and often use Dragonair several times with the same trainer. I don't see a problem having one or two repeating Pokemon (especially with regards to Tristan: he could have, say, a earlier leveled Blitzfaust in the gym and a higher-leveled Blitzfaust in the E4, or his whole team could be just evolved-forms and higher level versions of the gym with some changes).

Also Engil isn't very rare in any shape or form :/

[neon.Barnacle]

I like all of Reli's ideas, although looking at the Topaz dex, a normal-type gym may be a problem since I don't see any really good normal type Pokemon.


Also, I'm personally against getting rid of Christina, because I planned on giving her an important role in the storyline...

[Zenith]

Wait...putting Layla in Aquapolis wouldn't work. A Dark gym in an underwater city would be more of an "abyssal, foreboding" Dark, than the "night, not evil" Dark type Layla would represent. Her name apparently means "night"!

Wouldn't going with a "Sun" theme for a Light gym overlap a little in style with Fernando's Grass gym?

Huh, I thought Engil could only be found in that hidden shrine in Mt. Frost. Guess I heard wrong.

[NyteFyre]

I believe that's Mirust, that's hidden only within the Mt.Mist shrine thingy.

[BladeVap]

Actually, you are both incorrect; Atlaxa is found there.

[SilentSentinel]

Mt. Frost Shrine (secret): 20% Duval, 20% Engil, 10% Duval, 10% Engil, 10% Slowpoke, 10% Mirust, 5% Atlaxa, 5% Slowpoke, 4% Mirust, 4% Slowbro, 1% Mirust, 1% Slowbro

Or you guys could do some research and figure out you are all partially right.

[BladeVap]

Or you guys could do some research and figure out you are all partially right.

I actually lol'd IRL. Thanks, but...wasn't there only one Mirust originally?

[Merlin]

a thought about the e4 champion: y not use the Rocket or Orion boss for this person?
course it'd be kinda wierd especially if you're allowed to choose whether your on Orion's side or on Rocket's side...
so maybe you should use the Orion leader since rocket's leader was used for a gym in RBGY/FRLG...

[Zenith]

It doesn't really make sense. Why would either the head of what is basically the Mafia or the leader of an up-and-coming vigilante group just happen to be in good enough standing with the League to be some random trainer's final test to going pro? Wouldn't the League know who Giovanni and Ophelia are?

[NyteFyre]

I have to agree, it doesn't make sense. Though on the topic of Silver/Acanthite's name for the guy, Maybe he could be the E4 champ? Nah...What would he be doing in C/K when he has his own game to run?

[ImmunityBow]

I think Vincent as champ is good enough, honestly. We just need to write him in better.

[NyteFyre]

Agreed. Vincent is the most reasonable to put in.

[Zenith]

For now, anyway.

[Merlin]

Well the league knew that Giovanni was in control of Team Rocket because he was also a gym leader if you don't recall...
So the league knowing about the leader of Orion being the champ wouldn't be a problem especially if the leader was the Champion for sometime prior to becoming the leader of Orion....

But because Giovanni was in control of a group of Criminals and the league didn't bother him then i'm sure the league isn't gonna bother the Champion for starting his own little region defenders esp. since 1: he's the region champ, 2: would be helping the cops arrest Team Rocket for what they're doing...

[Reliability]

The leader of the defender's is a she.
Though the idea is valid, I personally think that it almost places the Orions above the rockets, which isn't really good since Giovanni was only a Gym Leader and it leaves the leaders unbalanced. Not to mention that if you join the Rockets, you'll likely have already faced the Champion. We are already planning to have Tristan as a gym leader and become an E4, so repeating two known characters kind of ruins the shock value of having the repeat of just one.

I think Vincent is honestly good enough for the Champion. It makes logical sense, and it's nice that we're returning to the RBY idea of your rival becoming champion before you. In addition, it adds an extra reason to have Vincent in the game in the first place, since his only purpose other than the Champion position is to balance out the named characters in the Rockets and the Orion (since he joins the team that you don't).

A little off of what we're discussing now, but I'd like to suggest that, if possible, we make new sprites for Simon, Bradley and Vincent. The ones on the site right now are clearly mixes of existing sprites and Vincent's current sprite in particular looks a little too much like Silver, which is unfortunate since they're pretty similar characters at the moment.

[Merlin]

i don't mind it be the rival i just figured i could solve a couple problems that some people had and so i suggested what i think could work for what they wanted...

although this does make better sense than what they did in PDP when they had an unknown become the champ when it clearly was set up for the Blond boy....

btw how come you never battled him by the time you reached the e4? or am i forgetting parts of the game? (i lost my ds so it's been a time since i've last played it...)

[Reliability]

Except for when it was your rival in RBY, you never battle the Champion until after the E4. You DO always meet them and they help you out in some way. That was true for Lance (GSC), Stephen (RSE) and Cynthia (DPP). Lance became kind of unique when they allowed you to double battle with him in HGSS, but other than that... they've all been the same.

[Merlin]

that's true...
i just couldn't remember what they did in PDP...
well i personally think that so long as what ya'll want works the way you want it to i'll be cool with it...
i can't currently think of what else to add...

[Silver]

how 'bout simon?
dosen't the hero eventually find him?
or
he'd be the the champ and the pokemon that took him away was now his best friend and he started his own little adventure
just a suggestion

[Reliability]

Simon already is filling his niche quite nicely, so I would say no.

He joins Team Rocket, becoming an executive. I would avoid it for the same reasons as Ophelia not becoming the Champion.

[Silver]

didn't see that comin'
simon in TR
ouch

[gligar]

At one point in the game, you go back to your house, and santa falls down your chimmeny. he turns out to be art of team rocket, sent her to capture you, seeing you get badges.
cabririsk
lv.21
stantler
lv.21

What about a rival: first battle: starting town. 2nd battle on an enforcer boat 3rd battle; as team rocket member

[BladeVap]

Lol@ the first suggestion...I am sorry, but that's laughably silly. No offence...

The second suggestion is also a no, we have the rival battles planned out already.

[Betatmw]

I'm taking it Chloreon is the Grass evolved form of Eevee? Well wouldn't it make more sense to change it? I know it's late on and all but Leafeon already exists.

[Reliability]

Chloreon was made before Leafeon existed.

And, this is game is being made as an alternate to D/P/P, as we're only taking certain things that were introduced in it (the physical/special split for ex.) and not others (the Pokemon being the most general example). So yeah, i don't think we'll be changing it.

[Zenith]

Whoa, it's been a while. I blame procrastination and being overscheduled. Anyway, before we go too far on Gym Leader stuff, I wanted to get a few ideas out that might end up affecting those.

Major points are in italics, for the sake of finding them fast.

First of all, as we know, the moveset in Topaz is a little...behind compared to the canon games. I'm not going to go off against that. In fact, I have a way to justify it in game. As it stands right now, Caldera-Kirant is pretty underdeveloped technologically compared to the other ones we've seen. The C-K League has just been established before the events of the game, which means that because Caldera-Kirant is so isolated it wouldn't be out of the question that the region's metagame is behind, and hasn't picked up on some of the tactics the other regions have.

Furthermore, we could run with the whole idea of the region being more rural until recently. The western parts of the region have seen an urban boom, resulting in Colussus, Enechestra, etc. Team Rocket has taken control of some things behind the scenes in order to gain more turf. Eastern Kirant would be almost entirely rural, but starting to modernize, with Orion forwarding it...but in much more moderation than Rocket.

I also wanted to cover a few potential edits to the region's geography. Don't write it off just yet, I know what you're thinking; I have some legit reasons behind them.

First of all, you might notice that central Caldera is very...chaotic, with two mountains, two cities, and an artificial desert. All of those, as of right now, have very little room to work with. As it stands right now, there isn't any way to expand any of them, because of how packed together they are. I believe the best way to give us more room to expand on them is...

...Move the Eye of Sand and Saharan City to southwestern Kirant, and remove Portwind. As of right now, Portwind is just filler...IB said it himself. There is no reason to do anything in the southwestern part of the map right now, just sidequests. And since the Eye of Sand was created way back by expy Egyptians, it isn't limited to where it can be. It also moves the 11th Gym closer to the 12th one (Aquapolis), and makes the location of the late game gyms less of a one way path.

I also have a plan for a village to replace Portwind. Soma Island would be expanded into a small village, and would be the location of the Dragon gym. The locals would all have some experience in dragon training, and would stick out a little compared to the visiting trainers and the people running the Gym and Center. This would also give players a reason to explore the southwestern ocean. There just needs to be a plot-related reason to go there in the first place...

The Dragon gym would be 9th in this case, so the last four Gyms would go Dragon->Ice->Ground->Dark.

Comments? Critiques? Try to keep responses organized, so nothing gets lost in the crossfire.

[NyteFyre]

yeah, lots of Chatbox related over scheduling. >.>

Though all sound fine and dandy, but what would IB say to that big of a move? Yeah, the eye of sand is a bit strange, and being artificial doesn't in any way limit its location, so i'd be fine with it. And yeah, putting it in Southwester Kirant would give it a slightly better reason to go there.

I'm not at all sure about the Soma Island thing, though i guess it could work, but where exactly would they get the dragons? Would they be more incorporated in Soma life? Would there be special qualifications to get one, like in Blackthorne in G/S/C? These are things myself, and maybe one or two others would be wondering about this area.

[Cyndadile]

As of right now, Portwind is just filler...

I thought that it was going to be the home of the light gym... Although we could work around that.

[Irot_Rebod]

I thought that it was going to be the home of the light gym... Although we could work around that.

Yes, I'm pretty sure that was mentioned in the Gym Leader topic. The ideas Zenith proposed don't seem bad, though. We could either work around the removal of Portwind and incorporate Zenith's plan, or stick with the current plan. I could be persuaded both ways...

[Reliability]

First of all, as we know, the moveset in Topaz is a little...behind compared to the canon games. I'm not going to go off against that. In fact, I have a way to justify it in game. As it stands right now, Caldera-Kirant is pretty underdeveloped technologically compared to the other ones we've seen. The C-K League has just been established before the events of the game, which means that because Caldera-Kirant is so isolated it wouldn't be out of the question that the region's metagame is behind, and hasn't picked up on some of the tactics the other regions have.
This started back before DPP was out, so obviously the metagame will be behind. I think most people will realize that (in reality) we just don't have the man-power to revamp everything when a new region comes out, since we're just so behind as it is. As it said in the FAQ, this is meant to be an alternative to DPP. It just seems like a lot of necessary explanation for something that hasn't really been touched on in any canon game anyway.


Furthermore, we could run with the whole idea of the region being more rural until recently. The western parts of the region have seen an urban boom, resulting in Colussus, Enechestra, etc. Team Rocket has taken control of some things behind the scenes in order to gain more turf. Eastern Kirant would be almost entirely rural, but starting to modernize, with Orion forwarding it...but in much more moderation than Rocket.
Again, seems unnecessary. Going into all this explanation of the past kind of takes away from when the plot unfolds. I'm just envisioning the walls of text as we try to explain all of this properly.


First of all, you might notice that central Caldera is very...chaotic, with two mountains, two cities, and an artificial desert.
Since when is this desert artificial? I was not informed of this... I assumed the the Eye of Sand was a rain shadow off of the mountains.


...Move the Eye of Sand and Saharan City to southwestern Kirant, and remove Portwind. As of right now, Portwind is just filler...IB said it himself. There is no reason to do anything in the southwestern part of the map right now, just sidequests. And since the Eye of Sand was created way back by expy Egyptians, it isn't limited to where it can be. It also moves the 11th Gym closer to the 12th one (Aquapolis), and makes the location of the late game gyms less of a one way path.
I also have a plan for a village to replace Portwind. Soma Island would be expanded into a small village, and would be the location of the Dragon gym. The locals would all have some experience in dragon training, and would stick out a little compared to the visiting trainers and the people running the Gym and Center. This would also give players a reason to explore the southwestern ocean. There just needs to be a plot-related reason to go there in the first place...

We COULD do this, but since the current way is just as good, why would we take the time to change it? I think things are fine the way they are, and side-quests are enough to make people go there. Side quests are, by definition, optional. It will be on the map, people can go there if they want.
If we did what you suggested, it would be best to move Rock to Sedcini and Light to Enechestra. Why? Because that's really the only option, we're running out of viable cities.

[ImmunityBow]

The Eye of Sand is in a correct place. It is near a mountain, which means that rain shadow justifies it, as Reliability said, and the heat can be attributed to the Fire Pokemon that live there. Granted, South-East Kirant is also right next to a mountain, but there isn't really that much that is wrong with Saharan City being where it is.

Everything else I believe is resolved when put to light with some of the more recent changes, rather than discussions that took place before the 12-gym system. There's no real need to put Zenith's ideas into play, especially since the placement as of now is pretty decently justified.

As for the whole rural thing, I don't mind that idea, and it doesn't quite have to be central. It can be like the Dumbledore-Grindalwald thing, implied, or even alluded to randomly, but not a center focus for the plot itself.

[Cyndadile]

...I'm not even going to ask who Grindalwald is.

I kind of like the idea of one side being mountainous, deserts, cities, and the other calmer.

[Zenith]

I'm not at all sure about the Soma Island thing, though i guess it could work, but where exactly would they get the dragons? Would they be more incorporated in Soma life? Would there be special qualifications to get one, like in Blackthorne in G/S/C? These are things myself, and maybe one or two others would be wondering about this area.
The dragons would indeed be a part of their society. Soma Island would have been for the most part cut off from mainland Kirant until recently, and because of that the locals have their own unique culture, and have specialized in raising the local dragons. The village itself would have the feel of a Final Fantasy village, save for the obligatory Center. Whoever is in charge of Soma decided that giving the Caldera-Kirant League a place to put a Gym would be one way of bringing their culture into modern society. And having it focus on the dragons that are such a large part of the island would be a way of teaching outsiders about their culture.


I thought that it was going to be the home of the light gym... Although we could work around that.
For one, it isn't finalized yet. For two, the only justification for it so far was that we could put a lighthouse in Portwind. We could just as easily have a lighthouse in Gallea. In fact, if the Light gym was 8th, the player could go from Gallea to Soma.


This started back before DPP was out, so obviously the metagame will be behind. I think most people will realize that (in reality) we just don't have the man-power to revamp everything when a new region comes out, since we're just so behind as it is. As it said in the FAQ, this is meant to be an alternative to DPP. It just seems like a lot of necessary explanation for something that hasn't really been touched on in any canon game anyway.
I understand. But we have to at least acknowledge D/P/Pl's existence. They actually take place around the same time as G/S/C, and Topaz takes place a few years after G/S/C. And of course revamping everything would be a huge task. That's why I'm saying that if there's a way to explain in-universe why Topaz doesn't have a lot of 4th/5th Gen moves, why not use it?


Going into all this explanation of the past kind of takes away from when the plot unfolds. I'm just envisioning the walls of text as we try to explain all of this properly.
If it's done badly, it does stick out like a sore thumb. If it's done well, and incorporated into scenery, dialog, etc., it adds depth without interfering with the plot. World building in a nutshell.


We COULD do this, but since the current way is just as good, why would we take the time to change it?
Because this has the potential to make Topaz better. And why just write off something that could end up improving it?


I think things are fine the way they are, and side-quests are enough to make people go there. Side quests are, by definition, optional. It will be on the map, people can go there if they want.
But why dedicate such a large part of the map to sidequests when other parts are unnecessarily overcrowded?


The Eye of Sand is in a correct place. It is near a mountain, which means that rain shadow justifies it, as Reliability said, and the heat can be attributed to the Fire Pokemon that live there. Granted, South-East Kirant is also right next to a mountain, but there isn't really that much that is wrong with Saharan City being where it is.
Stubborn as always, I see. >_>

I was under the impression that the in-universe version of ancient Egyptians created it to protect their settlement when they arrived, since they knew how to live in it and they presumed other cultures didn't. You emphasized them in Saharan's description, after all.

But more importantly, The Eye of Sand, Mt. Mist, and Skobeloff Mountain (which I'm guessing is going to be renamed to fit the village's name change) are all crammed into central Caldera, giving us very little room to work with all three. Remember how much room R/S/E gave Mt. Chimney? Remember how much room D/P/Pl gave Coronet? As of right now, Skobeloff has two single tile (1x1) routes, a single tile for foothills, a single tile for the mountain itself, and a single tile for the village. Even worse, the Eye of Sand has a single tile for the desert itself...half the size of Saharan City, which is supposed to be veiled by it. Not even close to enough room for a desert claimed to be so foreboding. Besides, if we put what is essentially a huge outdoor dungeon in a 1x1 area, wouldn't that seem kind of...suspicious?

The biggest reason for moving the Eye of Sand to southwest Kirant would be to give it enough room to make it a believably big enough maze to be a late game challenge. It also replaces a city that currently serves no purpose, and a route that is only there to lead to it. The two mountains also benefit, since we get room to expand both of them.


As for the whole rural thing, I don't mind that idea, and it doesn't quite have to be central. It can be like the Dumbledore-Grindalwald thing, implied, or even alluded to randomly, but not a center focus for the plot itself.
Good to see we agree on something. >_>

[ImmunityBow]

I don't remember ever emphasizing Egyptians in Saharan's descriptions. I looked at all the usual places, the site, the walkthrough, World of Topaz, and I haven't found it. And I'm not being stubborn, I didn't say the Eye of Sand is in the correct place, but in "a" correct place. Meaning that geographically, it's justified. All I needed was more reasoning why it should be moved, rather than just the simple suggestion. As for the moving, remember that no matter what the initial position would be resistance to change, considering that so many things have been made with whatever's already there in mind. You propose all these changes but never really appreciate the impact. The latter part of the Pokedex would have to be renumbered, requiring a change in dozens of files. Some of the themes of the routes would be lost.

There's no reason to get frustrated, it's just that my position is always to resist anything that will undo work we have already completed, until you manage to convince enough people to make it clear that your suggestion is the better option.

As for Mt. Frost, I think it best that it stay Mt. Frost. Part of the reason for changing Frost Town was that it matched the name of the mountain, and we don't have any Moon Town or Pyre Town or such. There is, however, a tradition of simple mountain names in Pokemon, Mt. Frost fits that decently enough.

[Reliability]

For one, it isn't finalized yet. For two, the only justification for it so far was that we could put a lighthouse in Portwind. We could just as easily have a lighthouse in Gallea. In fact, if the Light gym was 8th, the player could go from Gallea to Soma.
Then we need to put poison elsewhere. SUggestions?


I understand. But we have to at least acknowledge D/P/Pl's existence. They actually take place around the same time as G/S/C, and Topaz takes place a few years after G/S/C. And of course revamping everything would be a huge task. That's why I'm saying that if there's a way to explain in-universe why Topaz doesn't have a lot of 4th/5th Gen moves, why not use it?
If people know anything about this game before its downloaded, they'll know why the moves aren't put in. Also, refer to comment below.


If it's done badly, it does stick out like a sore thumb. If it's done well, and incorporated into scenery, dialog, etc., it adds depth without interfering with the plot. World building in a nutshell.
If we had a writing staff that could do this, then it would be fine. But part of the reason I'm trying to keep things simple is I am the only on who has volunteered to write the script. And this is only for the demo.

Good writing takes time. Good, complex, precise writing takes more time. I don't have that kind of time. And if we want to get this game out before Amy Winehouse goes to rehab, we need more writers or a limited number of ideas. We don't readily HAVE the former, so for the moment we have to go with the latter. Or never finish the game.



Because this has the potential to make Topaz better. And why just write off something that could end up improving it?
We didn't write it off. We explained why it isn't in our interest to do it. Writing it off would be, "no, we aren't reading your suggestion ever."


But why dedicate such a large part of the map to sidequests when other parts are unnecessarily overcrowded?
I don't think its that crowded actually. Landforms can be mashed together like that IRL.


But more importantly, The Eye of Sand, Mt. Mist, and Skobeloff Mountain (which I'm guessing is going to be renamed to fit the village's name change) are all crammed into central Caldera, giving us very little room to work with all three. Remember how much room R/S/E gave Mt. Chimney? Remember how much room D/P/Pl gave Coronet? As of right now, Skobeloff has two single tile (1x1) routes, a single tile for foothills, a single tile for the mountain itself, and a single tile for the village. Even worse, the Eye of Sand has a single tile for the desert itself...half the size of Saharan City, which is supposed to be veiled by it. Not even close to enough room for a desert claimed to be so foreboding. Besides, if we put what is essentially a huge outdoor dungeon in a 1x1 area, wouldn't that seem kind of...suspicious?
Considering that the map in probably as ancient as the project, it would make sense that not much thought was put into how many tiles were given to each thing. We can change that if we need to be more appropriate. THAT is a change I can support, since it makes sense and won't undo any work.


The biggest reason for moving the Eye of Sand to southwest Kirant would be to give it enough room to make it a believably big enough maze to be a late game challenge. It also replaces a city that currently serves no purpose, and a route that is only there to lead to it. The two mountains also benefit, since we get room to expand both of them.
It serves a purpose. Just because it serves no set purpose does not meant that there aren't plans for it. As stated, the light gym, as many people have agreed on, is going there.
(And it is the only reason to have the sea route south of Kirant. Right? If we take away Portwind, you would be going to Soma via Enechestra. There would be no purpose to go down there. Not even a side-quest.) The map works fine as it is.

OVERALL: Aesthetic changes are all well and good, but this project is not big or fast enough to handle large changes and new tangents. In order to get things done, we need to focus more on what we do have then what we already have. Heck, I want this to be a good game, but I would rather have a just good game finished then an awesome game that everyone gives up on because it's taking to damn long to finish.

[Irot_Rebod]

I see, if anything is going to set us back, then I'm in agreement with IB and Reli. I'd rather we get this demo out the door and push to finish the project before it is abandoned.

[Cyndadile]

I, personally, like sidequests. It is a way to expand the game for those who want to do them, and their optional so that people who are more interested in just beating the game can have a more streamlined path. It allows everybody to essentially get what they want out of the game. I doubt that people who are not interested in sidequests will be especially interested in straying too much from the main path.

[Zenith]

There's no reason to get frustrated, it's just that my position is always to resist anything that will undo work we have already completed, until you manage to convince enough people to make it clear that your suggestion is the better option.
...Of course. I get it now. You're not stubborn, you're just playing devil's advocate.

...Why didn't I see that before (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SincerityMode)...


As for the moving, remember that no matter what the initial position would be resistance to change, considering that so many things have been made with whatever's already there in mind. You propose all these changes but never really appreciate the impact. The latter part of the Pokedex would have to be renumbered, requiring a change in dozens of files. Some of the themes of the routes would be lost.
Maybe I haven't elaborated on some of them yet. Why would we need to rearrange the Dex? The Eye of Sand and connecting route would still only be accessible after the Skobeloff Gym, like before. And what route themes would be removed, and are there other places we could put them?


As for Mt. Frost, I think it best that it stay Mt. Frost. Part of the reason for changing Frost Town was that it matched the name of the mountain, and we don't have any Moon Town or Pyre Town or such. There is, however, a tradition of simple mountain names in Pokemon, Mt. Frost fits that decently enough.
I dunno. The mountain names have gotten more complex as of late (Chimney, Coronet, etc.), so it wouldn't be out of place, especially considering the more "clash between high tech & rural" theme we might be going with.


Then we need to put poison elsewhere. SUggestions?
Hmm...Colossus? If we're having the Normal & Poison gyms give out parts of the Rivalry Orb, Colossus' big city feel would be a huge contrast to Laysan, a farming village. Maybe the Leader could be bitter about the fact that the city is causing so much pollution that Poison actually fits it?


If people know anything about this game before its downloaded, they'll know why the moves aren't put in. Also, refer to comment below.
Of course. But being able to explain in game why it's like that gives it a layer of depth.


If we had a writing staff that could do this, then it would be fine. But part of the reason I'm trying to keep things simple is I am the only on who has volunteered to write the script. And this is only for the demo.

Good writing takes time. Good, complex, precise writing takes more time. I don't have that kind of time. And if we want to get this game out before Amy Winehouse goes to rehab, we need more writers or a limited number of ideas. We don't readily HAVE the former, so for the moment we have to go with the latter. Or never finish the game.
I could help you with that, actually. Maybe not on the same level, because I've been so busy, but I'm really good at editing things that already exist.


I don't think its that crowded actually. Landforms can be mashed together like that IRL.
True, but as threatening as the Eye of Sand is claimed to be, it's...too small as it is.


It serves a purpose. Just because it serves no set purpose does not meant that there aren't plans for it. As stated, the light gym, as many people have agreed on, is going there.
(And it is the only reason to have the sea route south of Kirant. Right? If we take away Portwind, you would be going to Soma via Enechestra. There would be no purpose to go down there. Not even a side-quest.) The map works fine as it is.
The only reason a few people have agreed is because it was the first thing suggested, and because it was suggested to put a lighthouse there. It could just as easily be put in Gallea if we removed Portwind, so for now the best option would be to keep our options open.

And Soma Island is on one of those sea routes. If I remember correctly, going off the more recent version of the map (in a post here (http://www.pokemontopaz.net/forums/showthread.php?63-Questions/page9)), Soma Island is on the northwestern tip of the southwesternmost dark blue water route. You'd be getting there via Gallea, not Enechestra...which is one of the reasons to put the Light gym in Gallea if we move the Eye of Sand.


OVERALL: Aesthetic changes are all well and good, but this project is not big or fast enough to handle large changes and new tangents. In order to get things done, we need to focus more on what we do have then what we already have. Heck, I want this to be a good game, but I would rather have a just good game finished then an awesome game that everyone gives up on because it's taking to damn long to finish.


I see, if anything is going to set us back, then I'm in agreement with IB and Reli. I'd rather we get this demo out the door and push to finish the project before it is abandoned.
Unfortunately, Badara is kind of MIA at the moment. While we do need to get things figured out for the demo, in the meantime we can still plan for the future.

[Reliability]

Hmm...Colossus? If we're having the Normal & Poison gyms give out parts of the Rivalry Orb, Colossus' big city feel would be a huge contrast to Laysan, a farming village. Maybe the Leader could be bitter about the fact that the city is causing so much pollution that Poison actually fits it?
That's the same as my rationale for Gallea, but I felt Gallea would be more Victorian-era industrialization (i.e. smoggy and loud) whereas Colossus would be more modern (and have "green" energy sources).
But since the object is to balance 6 gyms in Kirant and 6 in Caldera, having a gym in Colossus would mean moving one of the existing gyms out of Caldera.



Of course. But being able to explain in game why it's like that gives it a layer of depth.
...
I could help you with that, actually. Maybe not on the same level, because I've been so busy, but I'm really good at editing things that already exist.
Believe me, you're not the only one. Being busy is the plague of Topaz.

My statement still stands: we simply don't have time. This project has an expiry date, when people will stop checking and things stop moving forward and our endgame will still not have been achieved. I don't know, with the rate that things are getting done, if that will be in five years or two months. But we're approaching year 6 of this project and the demo still isn't really in grasp yet. Though comments and edits are helpful and everything, its creation that we really need right now, and our current member base is not large or diverse enough to provide that. I'm doing what I can, but at some point if things go stale enough, I won't have time to waste trying to pour life back into this thing. And with what I've already accomplished here, I DO NOT want it to get to that point.

So when you offer to edit things, it requires something to edit. There isn't anything to edit. And there may not be for a while. If things were going forward more quickly, I think we would all be more open to changing things, but as of right now, to keep me and many other people sane, we need to keep some level of conservatism.



True, but as threatening as the Eye of Sand is claimed to be, it's...too small as it is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_of_Maine + http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k1/BlackShadowmon3/Topaz%20Fronts/467.gif =pretty badass desert


The only reason a few people have agreed is because it was the first thing suggested, and because it was suggested to put a lighthouse there. It could just as easily be put in Gallea if we removed Portwind, so for now the best option would be to keep our options open.
It could move, but the way that we have it is pretty well accepted. I'm still waiting for the four days I set aside for it to be up, so I guess we can continue to debate the issue.

IF (emphasis on the if) Dragon -> Soma, then Rock -> Sedcini, and Light -> Enechestra. THAT I think would be the most sensible solution IF we decided to scrap Portwind. BUT, if nobody is sold on Soma, then there really is no solution: we can't afford to lose another Kirant city and still have six gyms. BE THAT AS IT MAY, the set up that is accepted right now is better, IMO, than this one. Simply, we don't have any real reason to move the Eye of Sand. Would it not be easier (if this is really such an issue) to edit the map and make the damn thing bigger? This seems like a visual issue and not a logistical one.


And Soma Island is on one of those sea routes. If I remember correctly, going off the more recent version of the map (in a post here (http://www.pokemontopaz.net/forums/showthread.php?63-Questions/page9)), Soma Island is on the northwestern tip of the southwesternmost dark blue water route. You'd be getting there via Gallea, not Enechestra...which is one of the reasons to put the Light gym in Gallea if we move the Eye of Sand.
I'm sorry, I was mistaken. I assumed that Soma would be ON the map. I thought it was the actual island in the southwest corner.


Unfortunately, Badara is kind of MIA at the moment. While we do need to get things figured out for the demo, in the meantime we can still plan for the future.
If there is no programmer, there is no future. I'm not fully convinced Badara IS coming back, which means we're a little dead in the water as of right now. But if we do find another one, or we get Badara back, I think we ought to have things done, right? If we aren't ready when a programmer does show up, he/she might leave before we get our act together.

[ImmunityBow]

Zenith, it's my job to see everything within the context of the whole picture. Not just the "what it could be" or the "what could be better", but also the "what we have" and "what can change". That's why I get to be favourable to some kinds of change and not so favourable to others, because, frankly, I do know more about Topaz than you do. Admittedly, this wasn't the case for a while when I first became the project leader, and of course I do forget things, but do realize that while I may seem to be against things for the sake of being against, it's because I am more able to understand the consequences of each change and how it affects what we already have. It doesn't mean I have a veto but I certainly have the right to disagree.

Also, if you want us to see your plan in its entirety, then you'll either have to post it in its entirety, or you can post whatever you will, and we will voice concerns that you will need to address. You can't just suggest something and then say that all our concerns are not valid because of a new piece of information you present that we would have had no way of knowing before. There was nothing in your post to suggest that the Eye of Sand would be blocked off (presumably by a Go-Go-Goggle style key item) until Skobeloff Town was finished.

As for the themes that would have to be changed. There is a pretty cool theme on the route connecting the Eye of Sand to the Mountainous Path on the way to Skobeloff Town concerning Iglonia and Torkoal and their Fire/Ice duality. I feel that the interplay of fire and ice has not really been explored very much by the rest of the Pokemon games so it was a interesting theme to include, and there was some agreement, though admittedly there wasn't that much opinion posted.

Also, understand that we do respect your opinion. Not just me, but a lot of people here. That's why you were made a VIP, because enough people respect your opinion that we believed you could use some more information to work with.

@Reliability: Colossus City was set up as an infringement on the harmonious nature of Caldera towns. It's supposed to be a polluting, debauch place with Drakodo and Grimer about, and the routes around it and I believe the NPC lines have been set up around this theme.

[SilentSentinel]

Yeah, I remember writing the lines for Collosus about it being the more industrialized and polluted city than Gallea.

[Reliability]

@Reliability: Colossus City was set up as an infringement on the harmonious nature of Caldera towns. It's supposed to be a polluting, debauch place with Drakodo and Grimer about, and the routes around it and I believe the NPC lines have been set up around this theme.

Yeah, I remember writing the lines for Collosus about it being the more industrialized and polluted city than Gallea.
Okay, I think I remember that now... Perhaps, then, the rationale for Gallea ought to be edited slightly. I'll think on it.
But Colossus still can't be used for the poison gym so, despite that, so my argument is still alright.

[Zenith]

I guess I should have been clearer about keeping the player from accessing the Eye of Sand until after clearing the 10th Gym. I was thinking it was kind of implied.

The problem with trying to split the gyms perfectly is the difference in number of towns...as of right now, Caldera has 11; Kirant has 9, and that's if you count Aquapolis.

And the Iglonia/Torkoal thing doesn't work very well even with the Eye of Sand. Deserts aren't always hot--the ones in the American southwest actually get pretty cool at night--their defining characteristic is being dry. Fire types wouldn't be too at home in almost all deserts.

@Rel: The Desert of Maine is only 40 acres...and was caused by haphazard farming over several generations. More importantly, Saharan city is supposed to be decent sized, even in modern terms, and veiled by the Eye of Sand. The desert itself would have to be large enough to accomplish that.

Actually, if the Eye of Sand was moved, we could add some kind of magma vent or something as a small (1-2 tiles & a cave) optional late game or postgame area. The Iglonia/Torkoal thing would work better with it.

[Reliability]

But 6 on each continent was the original idea that everyone agreed to. And it can be done, so we should DO it.

Actually, being dry would be beneficial to fire types. And if the desert wasn't hot already, they would provide the heat.

I was just proving that deserts have the capacity to be small, if that was your issue. We can make it visually bigger on the map if we want it to be more apparent that is "veils" Saharan. But I'm confused: would removing the Eye of Sand from the area altogether make Saharan a pretty illegitimate city. It's desert themed and to have only a magma vent certainly wouldn't justify it. So what do want? Are you still set on moving on it, or do you want it bigger? Because I feel like these are two separate arguments that don't assist each other at all.

[Cyndadile]

Deserts aren't always hot

True, but most people assume that they are. Pokemon has always been fairly stereotypical; I believe that can apply to locations.

[Zenith]

6 per continent may have been what we agreed on at first, but if we find a way that really works but happens to be 7-5, I don't see what the problem would be.

I wouldn't say the games are the most stereotypical...R/S/E, as you know, has a desert in Route 111. The encounters there are Sandshrew, Trapinch, Baltoy, and Cacnea...no Fire types, even though it's near an active volcano.

And Rel, I think you misunderstood me a little. Saharan would move with the Eye of Sand, and would go near where Portwind is now, but a little more inland.

Also, it has come to my attention that there are no real leveling opportunities between Froy and Therma. Any ideas to what we can do to prevent forced level grinding on Route 203?

[Irot_Rebod]

If it's possible, can we work in a mini story arc in here, similar to the Sprout Tower in Violet City or the Rocket Invasion at Slowpoke Well in G/S? If so, it could take care of the leveling issue, methinks.

[Reliability]

As much as its one league, these are two continents, with friction between them. It would be "unfair" for the league to make the two unbalanced. It would probably cause some sort of outcry on the part of the Kirant gyms.

There was nothing previously to suggest that you intended to move Saharan with the Eye of Sand.
But can you answer the question? If we were to, on the map, make the Eye of Sand more tiles, would that solve your issue and avoid having to move it?

I think that a mini-side quest might be a good option... we COULD introduce the Rockets or Orions at that point, since its as far in as the Rockets were introduced in GSC, and Galactic in DPP. Perhaps the rockets would actually BE the issue, and you can have a similar encounter with the Orion's after Therma. To facilitate for the demo, we could move the Orion encounter up into the demo, or simply have an appearance by them, but you wouldn't actually fight them.

[ImmunityBow]

Maybe something to do with the Softwind Orphanage? Or a basement with trainers in the library? (Which, by the way, is located in the passageway)

[Irot_Rebod]

All of these ideas sound good to me, though I think the introduction of Team Rocket and the Orion Defenders in the demo would be preferred.

[Tyrannigon64]

So, are there going to be contests like the ones Hoenn introduced?

[Reliability]

I don't think so. At this point, we haven't got any of the base work done, and I'm not sure if its a programming possibility in the first place. If circumstances change and we are making good headway and it is POSSIBLE, then perhaps.

But at this point, no there will be no contests.

[Tyrannigon64]

I just had an awesome idea! You know how they made Magnemite and Magneton part Steel when they invented the Steel type? You should do the same sort of thing for Ampharos and make it part Light type! You probably won't, but it was just an idea that I think is awesome and I wanted to get out there.

[Cyndadile]

I think that Ampharos is staying electric (for now), but Togepi/Togetic are getting light.

[BladeVap]

So, are there going to be contests like the ones Hoenn introduced?

I wish! However, like Reli said, I don't think it's possible right now...though I know I'd enter a Phantern in them...


I just had an awesome idea! You know how they made Magnemite and Magneton part Steel when they invented the Steel type? You should do the same sort of thing for Ampharos and make it part Light type! You probably won't, but it was just an idea that I think is awesome and I wanted to get out there.

What Cyndadile is true, plus there was discussion that did NOT pass to make Clefairy a Light-type too.

[Tyrannigon64]

Really? I didn't know that! I'm glad that the idea of giving previous generation Pokemon the Light type will be used.

[Cyndadile]

How about a continuous rain animation? Instead of every turn it says "It is raining" and does an animation, just "It started raining", "It is no longer raining", and an animation throughout the battle in between. The same for hail, sandstorm, and possibly status conditions.

[ImmunityBow]

That would depend on programming viability.

[SilentSentinel]

The right board for what? If you're here for the Pokemon Topaz project, then you have reached the right place.

[scourdy]

stunned)..

[Silver]

uh, english...please?

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

It says:

Dance of the belly in the process of its development has absorbed countless cultural and social experience of almost all generations and nations. Almost all elements bellidans relate to the natural movements of this planet.
More on google here http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...3A% 2F% 2F2NT.ru
Dynamic life today requires fast and accurate responses to, what is happening around them. "Razrulivat" various challenges us with your great help programs and software systems, liberating us from the routine, when the same operation must be done repeatedly. This is true for frivolous and fun and work. The same goes, incidentally, applies to the education of the younger generation, training of animals. If all these routine procedures can not be automated, what is dull and drab, perhaps, would be our life? In the bleak routine, which has no end or edge.
But sad enough, there is a bright light pointing out. In an endless "sea" of the Internet there are sites where you can download for free programs, software, Varese, quality music. A good example of the wonderful site, bringing a real pleasure, is v7em.com - site useful, necessary, because there, as they say in the old days, everything is there. "
Although ... Totally agree with you. This is something there and it's a great idea. I support you.

So basically spam.

[Cyndadile]

He was just saying that my idea was good... :p

[Quinn]

^ wtf? lol. That is kinda pointless...maybe just as much as this post.

[SilentSentinel]

This is what I mean, weird crap like that keeps popping up now...

[BladeVap]

Are you guys sure we have spambots under control? I say delete all these gibberish users instead of blocking them.

[SilentSentinel]

Okay, that has to stop.

[Tyrannigon64]

What's freaking hot? Are you a spambot?

[BladeVap]

What's freaking hot? Are you a spambot?

Yeah, he is. I reported him already.

[STT]

Holy crap this page has a s**tload of deleted bot posts on it. XD

[zeroality]

Yeah, the problem should be resolved now though.

The one who just posted as a guest must have gotten through as our webhost was swapping out files, which resulted in a temporary interruption of permissions.

That's my assumption anyway, we'll see. I tried posting as a guest and couldn't.

[Sev]

i was looking at the topaz exclusive pokemon (ihave them saved in a file) and noticed some of the new evolutions didn't have the right palettes, so i tried fixing abbysus
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/5245/abbysus.png
if you look at the right hind leg you can see a bad outline with the black seperating the white and gray, im not good with outlines so can someone fix this?

[Tyrannigon64]

What do you mean by "right palettes"? Do you mean the same palette as its previous evolution? It isn't necessary for them to have the same palette. For example, Marill and Azumarill are the both the same shade of blue, but they don't have the exact same palettes.

[Sev]

i thoght the palettes were TOO off, i mean it wasn't even gray it was a dark purple

[Tyrannigon64]

And what's wrong with that? There are a lot of Pokemon that change colour completely when they evolve (such as the Hoppip line), and some change colours about as much as Absol does (such as Mudkip, Ekans, and Machoke).

[zeroality]

FYI: I moved the 34 posts that delved into a discussion about contests and HMs into its own thread (http://www.pokemontopaz.net/forums/showthread.php?905-regarding-HMs-and-contests) since I figured the discussion was still ongoing and I didn't want to spam up the suggestions thread any further.

[tigerft1]

What about a trainer who wants to join the Orion Defenders but never makes it in. His name could be Tyler. you could battle him like three times in the game.

1st time: Route 2:
Fincherp: Lv 7
Tackle
Take down
Aerial ace
Gust



Mogel: Lv 8
Bite
Tackle
Slam
Growl

Hope you like my idea.

[BladeVap]

Seems more like a Rival suggestion, which we don't need. It's not a bad idea, but I think we have enough characters as-is.

EDIT: Also, Aerial Ace and Take Down are a no on Pokemon that early in the game.

[tigerft1]

OK thanks. I'm pretty new here. What about a battle club? Kind of like a lace where there is four trainers to battle. And if you beat them all you could get an item?

[zeroality]

I certainly don't want to discourage you, but what we really need here is input on existing threads and ideas instead of new ones. We are pretty far into the development phase of the game (aside from programming).

A good place to start would be helping us finalize Pokedex Entries (http://www.pokemontopaz.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?8-Previous-Gen-Pokedex-Entries) for previous Pokemon that will be appearing in Topaz.

The threads that aren't locked are the ones that still need finalizing. 4 votes (yes 4 now) are required to approve a dex entry so it'd be cool if you could go either vote or help improve the entry, if discussion is still ongoing.

There's also a bunch of stuff here and there that need attention, such as item sprites or gym leader information. Welcome! Hope you enjoy it here.

[Cyndadile]

Yeah, 5 would be basically unanimous now.

[Cyndadile]

Double post!

5th gen changed it so that pokemon names are, for example, "Venap" instead of "VENAP". Could we do that? I like them lower case.

[Konrad]

Agreed. We're only done a dozen data entries, so its a trivial change at this point.

[NyteFyre]

Actually, from what I can see, almost ALL of the entries needed at least for the Demo are done, and most of the regular ones are done. Only the Previous Generation entries are the only ones not up to speed, yet. Still, I do like the lower casing better, and it shouldn't be too hard to lowercase each pokemon name, as well as the word POKEMON.

[zeroality]

it shouldn't be too hard to lowercase each pokemon name, as well as the word POKEMON.

Wouldn't be hard at all actually. There are case converters online. I could even do it via CSS (text-transform) and paste the text. There's a lot of ways we can get it done via an automated process.

[NyteFyre]

Ok then, sounds like a plan! To non all caps for dex entries, I present A Toast!

[Cyndadile]

I expected at least some opposition, but this is good.

We only need to change the external name, not the internal, for the pokemon data.

[Tyrannigon64]

I personally don't like the idea, but it's not that big a deal.

[ImmunityBow]

Same. It's traditional for Pokemon to be all caps in game, and because of that I'm used to seeing it like that and would prefer it to be that way, but really it doesn't actually matter too much.

[Cyndadile]

We could hold a vote, to see what the majority wants.

[Tyrannigon64]

We could hold a vote, to see what the majority wants.

I like this plan.

[NyteFyre]

Agreed.

[zeroality]

There's a couple polls going on right now so let's get those out of the way first.

[ImmunityBow]

We don't need to poll every change we propose. This is very different from move names in that it's not nearly as subjective and I'd like a strong reasoning to back every vote, which we sadly cannot achieve with a poll. As such I'm strongly against one for this issue.

[zeroality]

We don't need to poll every change we propose.
Actually, I think this is one thing we do need to poll.

We are proposing a relatively big change to the game - despite it being a seemingly minor aesthetic change, people are going to feel strongly about it.

Although I agree with you that this is one thing that should not be left up to a "click and vote" forum poll. We can make a thread and take votes via posts, and require they back it up with reasoning for the vote to count. We can explain everything in the first post, along with a neutral paragraph for each option or something.

[ImmunityBow]

Voting and polling aren't them same thing. I'm fine with a vote, but I'd hate for their to be a poll, because one side could make a thousand good points but then people check the poll and see that the votes went another way. And I don't think I'm too far off in saying that a lot of people vote simply to finish things off, and then it snowballs and we're left with something we shouldn't have done.

[Sev]

Voting and polling aren't them same thing. I'm fine with a vote, but I'd hate for their to be a poll, because one side could make a thousand good points but then people check the poll and see that the votes went another way. And I don't think I'm too far off in saying that a lot of people vote simply to finish things off, and then it snowballs and we're left with something we shouldn't have done.
Ditto.

[zeroality]

Although I agree with you that this is one thing that should not be left up to a "click and vote" forum poll. We can make a thread and take votes via posts

[ImmunityBow]

I did read that, but I'm saying to avoid creating a forum poll at all, even if the result is left up to votes on the topic, since it can be a bad influence.

[zeroality]

Well capped names is something we need to decide via majority consensus. How do you want to do it?

[ImmunityBow]

A simple topic debate with votes backed up by reasoning.

[zeroality]

So, exactly what I suggested? Sounds good then.

[Tyrannigon64]

Can we please allow running indoors? I found the fact that you couldn't kind of annoying in RSE.

[ImmunityBow]

It's definitely possible. How do others feel about it?

[Cyndadile]

Can we please allow running indoors? I found the fact that you couldn't kind of annoying in RSE.


It's definitely possible. How do others feel about it?

Yes. Definitely.

[SilentSentinel]

I would agree. It isn't very hard to implement from what I know.

[Cranky Guy]

In real life, no. In the game, not being able to run indoors was the most annoying thing, other than getting Rayquaza in heartgold and soul silver.

[STT]

Unique themes for every leader? It'd make for a great challenge for IR and I. XD

Besides, I wanna flex my Touhou remixing muscle and make a remix of Dark Side of Fate for any sort of ninja boss.

[Reliability]

If we have the music, I wouldn't mind doing it. But I would prefer it if we could get solid tracks for all of the stuff that we still need before embarking on extra stuff like this. But anything you want to make is welcomed. We may be able to use it for something else.

[Tyrannigon64]

Maybe the same tune, just different instruments for each leader?

[ImmunityBow]

I'm still not entirely sold on remixing music from games other than Pokemon for our purposes. You can certainly used a theme here or there in a composition (after all, that's what all the highly-paid composers do anyway) but remixing a whole song seems unfitting.

[Tyrannigon64]

Do you think that, for the purpose of revamping movesets with egg moves, we should have some kind of chart or something of each move and which Pokemon know it? I can try and do that and update it when needed (because I'm usually online at very least once a day), I was just looking for approval. It's not really a suggestion for the game, I just didn't know where to put it :S

EDIT: It would help me to make it if someone could tell me what it means on Bulbapedia, if for the level, it says "--" (this is only on articles about specific moves)? I'm fairly sure that it means that the Pokemon knows the move as soon as it is hatched/given to you, I just want to be sure.

[ImmunityBow]

I have an outdated but still rather useful Big Everything File which is a document containing all the Pokemon and their moves and stats up to the time of the Hypno revamp. To use it you can just use CTRL + F to find the move you want. It should actually be somewhere on the Contributor forum.

[Eduardo]

Hey, anyone think about the idea of have a pokemon following you, like pikachu on yellow, or others in the 4th gen?
If the problem are the sprites, I can help, but if was the programming...

[zeroality]

I think that's already been shot down, or at least discussed at one point. I'm not sure if the programming aspect was the reason it was shelved.

Konrad would be the one to comment on the programming feasibility. But to be honest, Topaz doesn't need new features. It needs to get done.

[Eduardo]

Yeah, I get it, anyway, do you guys think about put a language feature, or the game will be only in english? Because I know a lot of people that will like to play a RPG in it own language, like the translated roms on the internet. I can translate to portuguese, if you guys like the idea, I am sure that here in Brazil a lot of people will enjoy, here we have a very huge pokemon players group...

[ImmunityBow]

Yeah, sure. If Reliability is okay with it, and you feel that this is the way you can best contribute to Topaz, then we can PM you parts of the script to translate. Are you up for it?

[Reliability]

Fine by me.

[Eduardo]

Well, if ok with you guys, I can do it, you guys can send me the lines via PM or you can send to my e-mail, if you think is best, I'm very happy to contribute to this game, and to make it even more accessible to people around the word, and I'm spreading the message around here... :D

[ImmunityBow]

I sent the first part of the demo script to you. Good luck!

[Eduardo]

Thank You, I'm gonna start right now.

[Konrad]

The essentials kit comes with a simple to use translation tool. It compiles all of the text into one file, which can then be translated and recompiled where it belongs.

[Eduardo]

I just translated the text that ImmunityBow sent me (I sent the text more than one time, sorry!), waiting for the next, I just want to have a list of the items of the game (All of them) to translate them, the locations will keep in english, but the items an some denominations will be changed, to make more understandable for newcomers

[ImmunityBow]

A good place to look would be here: http://www.pokemontopaz.net/forums/showthread.php?366-Topaz-Items-TMs

Follow the links and we've got all the Topaz-specific items there. If you need to include all of the items included in the official games (Potions and such) I guess I could looks into Poccil's to see if there's a full list somewhere I can type up for you.

[Eduardo]

Yeah, it will be good to know all the non-exclusive items that will apear on the gama, but for now I gonna work on the exclusive ones...

[Silver]

would it be possible if maybe we could get rid of vincent and just have simon as a rival...
you know, like the whole peam plasma/N thing?
just thinking out loud here...

[Reliability]

Vincent has been replaced by Alisa. It's the same character, but female.

Bradley, Simon and Alisa are the three rivals right now. Are you proposing removing just Alisa, or BOTH Alisa and Bradley as rivals? Can you tell me why?

[Silver]

i didn't know vincent was replaced by a female character,
my thought was mabye scrap him because there was no real back story to him

you know like in hg/ss how silver's story we're explained in the celebi event

unless of course we will have something similar

[Reliability]

There isn't really a real "back story" to any of the characters, since none of them are canon.

I will say, though, that all the characters are necessary to the story, and will be developed as much as they need to be.

[ImmunityBow]

There is a good reason for there to be 3 rivals. During the Rocket/Orion plotline, we have one rival in each, plus one rival taking the opposite stance from you. This helps establish the teams values and creates a recurring persona for each team that explores the team's philosophy through direct interaction and development with the main character, which non-related characters just wouldn't be able to compete with.

[Silver]

okay

[Will]

Simply a suggestion but I understand the user receives a choice between Blitzfaust or Vilephist after defeating a gym leader or something similar.

Perhaps the user could receive Vilephist if he joins Rocket and Blitzfaust if he joins Orion Defenders.

Not sure how set in stone this is but I thought it would be a nice idea.

[ImmunityBow]

Then what would be a suitable prize for beating Chuck?

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

Magikarp :P

Depending on how late Chuck is, perhaps Bakurge?

[Will]

Purior?

[ImmunityBow]

Bakurge is found in the Abandoned Factory. Purior isn't Fighting type.

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

A magikarp with Hyper Beam :P

Smeargle? It has to appear somewhere. Perhaps Chuck is quite the (movie) artist?

[Cranky Guy]

The other pokemon you couldn't get. Let's just say you join the orion defenders and recieve Blitzfaust. Then after you finish the game and beat Chuck, you receive Vilephist! That way you can still fill your whole pokedex. Did you understand that?

[NyteFyre]

I understood perfectly, and I think it's a suitable prize! :3

But what about for Jasmine? What could you get from her?

[ImmunityBow]

Okay, cranky guy's idea works out nicely. Jasmine I think you got a certain item from her, but I don't remember.

[NyteFyre]

Metal coat, probably?

[Triumph]

If I remember correctly, the Metal Coat was gotten through the captain of the ship in HG/SS.

[Reliability]

Do any of out Pokemon evolve with Metal Coat though? And it seems a little anti-climactic to get a Pokemon from Chuck and then just that item from Jasmine. I feel like it should be something more significant?

[NyteFyre]

Hmm, you're right.....Maybe Chuck's gym could be harder, or a quest has be done first, as a way to make up for that anti-climaticism? Or perhaps you have to go to Olivine first, kind of like a reversal of what you have to do in HG/SS?

[Black Temple Gaurdian]

Swamp Dragon Pokemon. She should give you one.

[NyteFyre]

Well, but that doesn't make much sense, though. Blitzfaust/Vilephist makes sense for chuck since he's a fighting type Gym Leader. Drakodo, or whatever pokemon you're talking about just doesn't fit with Jasmine.

Purior could maybe fit her, since it's a Steel/Light type, though I think Purior is going somewhere else...but other than Skalloy, who's a baby pokemon, and Mirust, who's already got a side-quest, there are no other steel basic pokemon..

[ImmunityBow]

Drakodo can be found outside of Colossus City. Purior I thought was going to be a sidequest. Jasmine could be part of that, instead of simply just giving something for defeating her.

[Reliability]

I haven't really thought about writing side plots yet, so this is a solid idea as a jumping off point.

[Cranky Guy]

I was thinking that Jasmine would give you an item that allows you to catch Purior. Here's how it works.

You beat Jasmine. Jasmine tells you about Purior. You receive an item from Jasmine that helps you find Purior. The item will than (pick one of the choices below).

1. Allow you to find Purior as a wandering Pokemon.
2. Give you access to a new area that will have Purior waiting at the end. (like the Old Sea Map and Eon Ticket)

Having Jasmine just give you Purior is OK too, though.

[Reliability]

I'd probably go with something along the line of the second one.

Perhaps Purior is the cause of the reason that the route into Johto has become impassible? That would be reason enough for Jasmine to know about the Pokemon, and wants it captured before it can do more damage.

[Triumph]

I'd probably go with something along the line of the second one.

Perhaps Purior is the cause of the reason that the route into Johto has become impassible? That would be reason enough for Jasmine to know about the Pokemon, and wants it captured before it can do more damage.
This seems like both great human logic and game logic. I second the motion.

[NyteFyre]

That could make sense. A semi-large steel type pokemon with powerful moves seems like it'd be capable of causing enough damage to ostracize Olivine from Jhoto.