Suggestions

[Zenith]

For now, anyway.

[Merlin]

Well the league knew that Giovanni was in control of Team Rocket because he was also a gym leader if you don't recall...
So the league knowing about the leader of Orion being the champ wouldn't be a problem especially if the leader was the Champion for sometime prior to becoming the leader of Orion....

But because Giovanni was in control of a group of Criminals and the league didn't bother him then i'm sure the league isn't gonna bother the Champion for starting his own little region defenders esp. since 1: he's the region champ, 2: would be helping the cops arrest Team Rocket for what they're doing...

[Reliability]

The leader of the defender's is a she.
Though the idea is valid, I personally think that it almost places the Orions above the rockets, which isn't really good since Giovanni was only a Gym Leader and it leaves the leaders unbalanced. Not to mention that if you join the Rockets, you'll likely have already faced the Champion. We are already planning to have Tristan as a gym leader and become an E4, so repeating two known characters kind of ruins the shock value of having the repeat of just one.

I think Vincent is honestly good enough for the Champion. It makes logical sense, and it's nice that we're returning to the RBY idea of your rival becoming champion before you. In addition, it adds an extra reason to have Vincent in the game in the first place, since his only purpose other than the Champion position is to balance out the named characters in the Rockets and the Orion (since he joins the team that you don't).

A little off of what we're discussing now, but I'd like to suggest that, if possible, we make new sprites for Simon, Bradley and Vincent. The ones on the site right now are clearly mixes of existing sprites and Vincent's current sprite in particular looks a little too much like Silver, which is unfortunate since they're pretty similar characters at the moment.

[Merlin]

i don't mind it be the rival i just figured i could solve a couple problems that some people had and so i suggested what i think could work for what they wanted...

although this does make better sense than what they did in PDP when they had an unknown become the champ when it clearly was set up for the Blond boy....

btw how come you never battled him by the time you reached the e4? or am i forgetting parts of the game? (i lost my ds so it's been a time since i've last played it...)

[Reliability]

Except for when it was your rival in RBY, you never battle the Champion until after the E4. You DO always meet them and they help you out in some way. That was true for Lance (GSC), Stephen (RSE) and Cynthia (DPP). Lance became kind of unique when they allowed you to double battle with him in HGSS, but other than that... they've all been the same.

[Merlin]

that's true...
i just couldn't remember what they did in PDP...
well i personally think that so long as what ya'll want works the way you want it to i'll be cool with it...
i can't currently think of what else to add...

[Silver]

how 'bout simon?
dosen't the hero eventually find him?
or
he'd be the the champ and the pokemon that took him away was now his best friend and he started his own little adventure
just a suggestion

[Reliability]

Simon already is filling his niche quite nicely, so I would say no.

He joins Team Rocket, becoming an executive. I would avoid it for the same reasons as Ophelia not becoming the Champion.

[Silver]

didn't see that comin'
simon in TR
ouch

[gligar]

At one point in the game, you go back to your house, and santa falls down your chimmeny. he turns out to be art of team rocket, sent her to capture you, seeing you get badges.
cabririsk
lv.21
stantler
lv.21

What about a rival: first battle: starting town. 2nd battle on an enforcer boat 3rd battle; as team rocket member

[BladeVap]

Lol@ the first suggestion...I am sorry, but that's laughably silly. No offence...

The second suggestion is also a no, we have the rival battles planned out already.

[Betatmw]

I'm taking it Chloreon is the Grass evolved form of Eevee? Well wouldn't it make more sense to change it? I know it's late on and all but Leafeon already exists.

[Reliability]

Chloreon was made before Leafeon existed.

And, this is game is being made as an alternate to D/P/P, as we're only taking certain things that were introduced in it (the physical/special split for ex.) and not others (the Pokemon being the most general example). So yeah, i don't think we'll be changing it.

[Zenith]

Whoa, it's been a while. I blame procrastination and being overscheduled. Anyway, before we go too far on Gym Leader stuff, I wanted to get a few ideas out that might end up affecting those.

Major points are in italics, for the sake of finding them fast.

First of all, as we know, the moveset in Topaz is a little...behind compared to the canon games. I'm not going to go off against that. In fact, I have a way to justify it in game. As it stands right now, Caldera-Kirant is pretty underdeveloped technologically compared to the other ones we've seen. The C-K League has just been established before the events of the game, which means that because Caldera-Kirant is so isolated it wouldn't be out of the question that the region's metagame is behind, and hasn't picked up on some of the tactics the other regions have.

Furthermore, we could run with the whole idea of the region being more rural until recently. The western parts of the region have seen an urban boom, resulting in Colussus, Enechestra, etc. Team Rocket has taken control of some things behind the scenes in order to gain more turf. Eastern Kirant would be almost entirely rural, but starting to modernize, with Orion forwarding it...but in much more moderation than Rocket.

I also wanted to cover a few potential edits to the region's geography. Don't write it off just yet, I know what you're thinking; I have some legit reasons behind them.

First of all, you might notice that central Caldera is very...chaotic, with two mountains, two cities, and an artificial desert. All of those, as of right now, have very little room to work with. As it stands right now, there isn't any way to expand any of them, because of how packed together they are. I believe the best way to give us more room to expand on them is...

...Move the Eye of Sand and Saharan City to southwestern Kirant, and remove Portwind. As of right now, Portwind is just filler...IB said it himself. There is no reason to do anything in the southwestern part of the map right now, just sidequests. And since the Eye of Sand was created way back by expy Egyptians, it isn't limited to where it can be. It also moves the 11th Gym closer to the 12th one (Aquapolis), and makes the location of the late game gyms less of a one way path.

I also have a plan for a village to replace Portwind. Soma Island would be expanded into a small village, and would be the location of the Dragon gym. The locals would all have some experience in dragon training, and would stick out a little compared to the visiting trainers and the people running the Gym and Center. This would also give players a reason to explore the southwestern ocean. There just needs to be a plot-related reason to go there in the first place...

The Dragon gym would be 9th in this case, so the last four Gyms would go Dragon->Ice->Ground->Dark.

Comments? Critiques? Try to keep responses organized, so nothing gets lost in the crossfire.

[NyteFyre]

yeah, lots of Chatbox related over scheduling. >.>

Though all sound fine and dandy, but what would IB say to that big of a move? Yeah, the eye of sand is a bit strange, and being artificial doesn't in any way limit its location, so i'd be fine with it. And yeah, putting it in Southwester Kirant would give it a slightly better reason to go there.

I'm not at all sure about the Soma Island thing, though i guess it could work, but where exactly would they get the dragons? Would they be more incorporated in Soma life? Would there be special qualifications to get one, like in Blackthorne in G/S/C? These are things myself, and maybe one or two others would be wondering about this area.

[Cyndadile]

As of right now, Portwind is just filler...

I thought that it was going to be the home of the light gym... Although we could work around that.

[Irot_Rebod]

I thought that it was going to be the home of the light gym... Although we could work around that.

Yes, I'm pretty sure that was mentioned in the Gym Leader topic. The ideas Zenith proposed don't seem bad, though. We could either work around the removal of Portwind and incorporate Zenith's plan, or stick with the current plan. I could be persuaded both ways...

[Reliability]

First of all, as we know, the moveset in Topaz is a little...behind compared to the canon games. I'm not going to go off against that. In fact, I have a way to justify it in game. As it stands right now, Caldera-Kirant is pretty underdeveloped technologically compared to the other ones we've seen. The C-K League has just been established before the events of the game, which means that because Caldera-Kirant is so isolated it wouldn't be out of the question that the region's metagame is behind, and hasn't picked up on some of the tactics the other regions have.

This started back before DPP was out, so obviously the metagame will be behind. I think most people will realize that (in reality) we just don't have the man-power to revamp everything when a new region comes out, since we're just so behind as it is. As it said in the FAQ, this is meant to be an alternative to DPP. It just seems like a lot of necessary explanation for something that hasn't really been touched on in any canon game anyway.

Furthermore, we could run with the whole idea of the region being more rural until recently. The western parts of the region have seen an urban boom, resulting in Colussus, Enechestra, etc. Team Rocket has taken control of some things behind the scenes in order to gain more turf. Eastern Kirant would be almost entirely rural, but starting to modernize, with Orion forwarding it...but in much more moderation than Rocket.

Again, seems unnecessary. Going into all this explanation of the past kind of takes away from when the plot unfolds. I'm just envisioning the walls of text as we try to explain all of this properly.

First of all, you might notice that central Caldera is very...chaotic, with two mountains, two cities, and an artificial desert.

Since when is this desert artificial? I was not informed of this... I assumed the the Eye of Sand was a rain shadow off of the mountains.

...Move the Eye of Sand and Saharan City to southwestern Kirant, and remove Portwind. As of right now, Portwind is just filler...IB said it himself. There is no reason to do anything in the southwestern part of the map right now, just sidequests. And since the Eye of Sand was created way back by expy Egyptians, it isn't limited to where it can be. It also moves the 11th Gym closer to the 12th one (Aquapolis), and makes the location of the late game gyms less of a one way path.
I also have a plan for a village to replace Portwind. Soma Island would be expanded into a small village, and would be the location of the Dragon gym. The locals would all have some experience in dragon training, and would stick out a little compared to the visiting trainers and the people running the Gym and Center. This would also give players a reason to explore the southwestern ocean. There just needs to be a plot-related reason to go there in the first place...

We COULD do this, but since the current way is just as good, why would we take the time to change it? I think things are fine the way they are, and side-quests are enough to make people go there. Side quests are, by definition, optional. It will be on the map, people can go there if they want.
If we did what you suggested, it would be best to move Rock to Sedcini and Light to Enechestra. Why? Because that's really the only option, we're running out of viable cities.

[ImmunityBow]

The Eye of Sand is in a correct place. It is near a mountain, which means that rain shadow justifies it, as Reliability said, and the heat can be attributed to the Fire Pokemon that live there. Granted, South-East Kirant is also right next to a mountain, but there isn't really that much that is wrong with Saharan City being where it is.

Everything else I believe is resolved when put to light with some of the more recent changes, rather than discussions that took place before the 12-gym system. There's no real need to put Zenith's ideas into play, especially since the placement as of now is pretty decently justified.

As for the whole rural thing, I don't mind that idea, and it doesn't quite have to be central. It can be like the Dumbledore-Grindalwald thing, implied, or even alluded to randomly, but not a center focus for the plot itself.

[Cyndadile]

...I'm not even going to ask who Grindalwald is.

I kind of like the idea of one side being mountainous, deserts, cities, and the other calmer.

[Zenith]

I'm not at all sure about the Soma Island thing, though i guess it could work, but where exactly would they get the dragons? Would they be more incorporated in Soma life? Would there be special qualifications to get one, like in Blackthorne in G/S/C? These are things myself, and maybe one or two others would be wondering about this area.

The dragons would indeed be a part of their society. Soma Island would have been for the most part cut off from mainland Kirant until recently, and because of that the locals have their own unique culture, and have specialized in raising the local dragons. The village itself would have the feel of a Final Fantasy village, save for the obligatory Center. Whoever is in charge of Soma decided that giving the Caldera-Kirant League a place to put a Gym would be one way of bringing their culture into modern society. And having it focus on the dragons that are such a large part of the island would be a way of teaching outsiders about their culture.

I thought that it was going to be the home of the light gym... Although we could work around that.

For one, it isn't finalized yet. For two, the only justification for it so far was that we could put a lighthouse in Portwind. We could just as easily have a lighthouse in Gallea. In fact, if the Light gym was 8th, the player could go from Gallea to Soma.

This started back before DPP was out, so obviously the metagame will be behind. I think most people will realize that (in reality) we just don't have the man-power to revamp everything when a new region comes out, since we're just so behind as it is. As it said in the FAQ, this is meant to be an alternative to DPP. It just seems like a lot of necessary explanation for something that hasn't really been touched on in any canon game anyway.

I understand. But we have to at least acknowledge D/P/Pl's existence. They actually take place around the same time as G/S/C, and Topaz takes place a few years after G/S/C. And of course revamping everything would be a huge task. That's why I'm saying that if there's a way to explain in-universe why Topaz doesn't have a lot of 4th/5th Gen moves, why not use it?

Going into all this explanation of the past kind of takes away from when the plot unfolds. I'm just envisioning the walls of text as we try to explain all of this properly.

If it's done badly, it does stick out like a sore thumb. If it's done well, and incorporated into scenery, dialog, etc., it adds depth without interfering with the plot. World building in a nutshell.

We COULD do this, but since the current way is just as good, why would we take the time to change it?

Because this has the potential to make Topaz better. And why just write off something that could end up improving it?

I think things are fine the way they are, and side-quests are enough to make people go there. Side quests are, by definition, optional. It will be on the map, people can go there if they want.

But why dedicate such a large part of the map to sidequests when other parts are unnecessarily overcrowded?

The Eye of Sand is in a correct place. It is near a mountain, which means that rain shadow justifies it, as Reliability said, and the heat can be attributed to the Fire Pokemon that live there. Granted, South-East Kirant is also right next to a mountain, but there isn't really that much that is wrong with Saharan City being where it is.

Stubborn as always, I see. >_>

I was under the impression that the in-universe version of ancient Egyptians created it to protect their settlement when they arrived, since they knew how to live in it and they presumed other cultures didn't. You emphasized them in Saharan's description, after all.

But more importantly, The Eye of Sand, Mt. Mist, and Skobeloff Mountain (which I'm guessing is going to be renamed to fit the village's name change) are all crammed into central Caldera, giving us very little room to work with all three. Remember how much room R/S/E gave Mt. Chimney? Remember how much room D/P/Pl gave Coronet? As of right now, Skobeloff has two single tile (1x1) routes, a single tile for foothills, a single tile for the mountain itself, and a single tile for the village. Even worse, the Eye of Sand has a single tile for the desert itself...half the size of Saharan City, which is supposed to be veiled by it. Not even close to enough room for a desert claimed to be so foreboding. Besides, if we put what is essentially a huge outdoor dungeon in a 1x1 area, wouldn't that seem kind of...suspicious?

The biggest reason for moving the Eye of Sand to southwest Kirant would be to give it enough room to make it a believably big enough maze to be a late game challenge. It also replaces a city that currently serves no purpose, and a route that is only there to lead to it. The two mountains also benefit, since we get room to expand both of them.

As for the whole rural thing, I don't mind that idea, and it doesn't quite have to be central. It can be like the Dumbledore-Grindalwald thing, implied, or even alluded to randomly, but not a center focus for the plot itself.

Good to see we agree on something. >_>

[ImmunityBow]

I don't remember ever emphasizing Egyptians in Saharan's descriptions. I looked at all the usual places, the site, the walkthrough, World of Topaz, and I haven't found it. And I'm not being stubborn, I didn't say the Eye of Sand is in the correct place, but in "a" correct place. Meaning that geographically, it's justified. All I needed was more reasoning why it should be moved, rather than just the simple suggestion. As for the moving, remember that no matter what the initial position would be resistance to change, considering that so many things have been made with whatever's already there in mind. You propose all these changes but never really appreciate the impact. The latter part of the Pokedex would have to be renumbered, requiring a change in dozens of files. Some of the themes of the routes would be lost.

There's no reason to get frustrated, it's just that my position is always to resist anything that will undo work we have already completed, until you manage to convince enough people to make it clear that your suggestion is the better option.

As for Mt. Frost, I think it best that it stay Mt. Frost. Part of the reason for changing Frost Town was that it matched the name of the mountain, and we don't have any Moon Town or Pyre Town or such. There is, however, a tradition of simple mountain names in Pokemon, Mt. Frost fits that decently enough.

[Reliability]

For one, it isn't finalized yet. For two, the only justification for it so far was that we could put a lighthouse in Portwind. We could just as easily have a lighthouse in Gallea. In fact, if the Light gym was 8th, the player could go from Gallea to Soma.

Then we need to put poison elsewhere. SUggestions?

I understand. But we have to at least acknowledge D/P/Pl's existence. They actually take place around the same time as G/S/C, and Topaz takes place a few years after G/S/C. And of course revamping everything would be a huge task. That's why I'm saying that if there's a way to explain in-universe why Topaz doesn't have a lot of 4th/5th Gen moves, why not use it?

If people know anything about this game before its downloaded, they'll know why the moves aren't put in. Also, refer to comment below.

If it's done badly, it does stick out like a sore thumb. If it's done well, and incorporated into scenery, dialog, etc., it adds depth without interfering with the plot. World building in a nutshell.

If we had a writing staff that could do this, then it would be fine. But part of the reason I'm trying to keep things simple is I am the only on who has volunteered to write the script. And this is only for the demo.

Good writing takes time. Good, complex, precise writing takes more time. I don't have that kind of time. And if we want to get this game out before Amy Winehouse goes to rehab, we need more writers or a limited number of ideas. We don't readily HAVE the former, so for the moment we have to go with the latter. Or never finish the game.

Because this has the potential to make Topaz better. And why just write off something that could end up improving it?

We didn't write it off. We explained why it isn't in our interest to do it. Writing it off would be, "no, we aren't reading your suggestion ever."

But why dedicate such a large part of the map to sidequests when other parts are unnecessarily overcrowded?

I don't think its that crowded actually. Landforms can be mashed together like that IRL.

But more importantly, The Eye of Sand, Mt. Mist, and Skobeloff Mountain (which I'm guessing is going to be renamed to fit the village's name change) are all crammed into central Caldera, giving us very little room to work with all three. Remember how much room R/S/E gave Mt. Chimney? Remember how much room D/P/Pl gave Coronet? As of right now, Skobeloff has two single tile (1x1) routes, a single tile for foothills, a single tile for the mountain itself, and a single tile for the village. Even worse, the Eye of Sand has a single tile for the desert itself...half the size of Saharan City, which is supposed to be veiled by it. Not even close to enough room for a desert claimed to be so foreboding. Besides, if we put what is essentially a huge outdoor dungeon in a 1x1 area, wouldn't that seem kind of...suspicious?

Considering that the map in probably as ancient as the project, it would make sense that not much thought was put into how many tiles were given to each thing. We can change that if we need to be more appropriate. THAT is a change I can support, since it makes sense and won't undo any work.

The biggest reason for moving the Eye of Sand to southwest Kirant would be to give it enough room to make it a believably big enough maze to be a late game challenge. It also replaces a city that currently serves no purpose, and a route that is only there to lead to it. The two mountains also benefit, since we get room to expand both of them.

It serves a purpose. Just because it serves no set purpose does not meant that there aren't plans for it. As stated, the light gym, as many people have agreed on, is going there.
(And it is the only reason to have the sea route south of Kirant. Right? If we take away Portwind, you would be going to Soma via Enechestra. There would be no purpose to go down there. Not even a side-quest.) The map works fine as it is.

OVERALL: Aesthetic changes are all well and good, but this project is not big or fast enough to handle large changes and new tangents. In order to get things done, we need to focus more on what we do have then what we already have. Heck, I want this to be a good game, but I would rather have a just good game finished then an awesome game that everyone gives up on because it's taking to damn long to finish.

[Irot_Rebod]

I see, if anything is going to set us back, then I'm in agreement with IB and Reli. I'd rather we get this demo out the door and push to finish the project before it is abandoned.

[Cyndadile]

I, personally, like sidequests. It is a way to expand the game for those who want to do them, and their optional so that people who are more interested in just beating the game can have a more streamlined path. It allows everybody to essentially get what they want out of the game. I doubt that people who are not interested in sidequests will be especially interested in straying too much from the main path.

[Zenith]

There's no reason to get frustrated, it's just that my position is always to resist anything that will undo work we have already completed, until you manage to convince enough people to make it clear that your suggestion is the better option.

...Of course. I get it now. You're not stubborn, you're just playing devil's advocate.

...Why didn't I see that before...

As for the moving, remember that no matter what the initial position would be resistance to change, considering that so many things have been made with whatever's already there in mind. You propose all these changes but never really appreciate the impact. The latter part of the Pokedex would have to be renumbered, requiring a change in dozens of files. Some of the themes of the routes would be lost.

Maybe I haven't elaborated on some of them yet. Why would we need to rearrange the Dex? The Eye of Sand and connecting route would still only be accessible after the Skobeloff Gym, like before. And what route themes would be removed, and are there other places we could put them?

As for Mt. Frost, I think it best that it stay Mt. Frost. Part of the reason for changing Frost Town was that it matched the name of the mountain, and we don't have any Moon Town or Pyre Town or such. There is, however, a tradition of simple mountain names in Pokemon, Mt. Frost fits that decently enough.

I dunno. The mountain names have gotten more complex as of late (Chimney, Coronet, etc.), so it wouldn't be out of place, especially considering the more "clash between high tech & rural" theme we might be going with.

Then we need to put poison elsewhere. SUggestions?

Hmm...Colossus? If we're having the Normal & Poison gyms give out parts of the Rivalry Orb, Colossus' big city feel would be a huge contrast to Laysan, a farming village. Maybe the Leader could be bitter about the fact that the city is causing so much pollution that Poison actually fits it?

If people know anything about this game before its downloaded, they'll know why the moves aren't put in. Also, refer to comment below.

Of course. But being able to explain in game why it's like that gives it a layer of depth.

If we had a writing staff that could do this, then it would be fine. But part of the reason I'm trying to keep things simple is I am the only on who has volunteered to write the script. And this is only for the demo.

Good writing takes time. Good, complex, precise writing takes more time. I don't have that kind of time. And if we want to get this game out before Amy Winehouse goes to rehab, we need more writers or a limited number of ideas. We don't readily HAVE the former, so for the moment we have to go with the latter. Or never finish the game.

I could help you with that, actually. Maybe not on the same level, because I've been so busy, but I'm really good at editing things that already exist.

I don't think its that crowded actually. Landforms can be mashed together like that IRL.

True, but as threatening as the Eye of Sand is claimed to be, it's...too small as it is.

It serves a purpose. Just because it serves no set purpose does not meant that there aren't plans for it. As stated, the light gym, as many people have agreed on, is going there.
(And it is the only reason to have the sea route south of Kirant. Right? If we take away Portwind, you would be going to Soma via Enechestra. There would be no purpose to go down there. Not even a side-quest.) The map works fine as it is.

The only reason a few people have agreed is because it was the first thing suggested, and because it was suggested to put a lighthouse there. It could just as easily be put in Gallea if we removed Portwind, so for now the best option would be to keep our options open.

And Soma Island is on one of those sea routes. If I remember correctly, going off the more recent version of the map (in a post here), Soma Island is on the northwestern tip of the southwesternmost dark blue water route. You'd be getting there via Gallea, not Enechestra...which is one of the reasons to put the Light gym in Gallea if we move the Eye of Sand.

OVERALL: Aesthetic changes are all well and good, but this project is not big or fast enough to handle large changes and new tangents. In order to get things done, we need to focus more on what we do have then what we already have. Heck, I want this to be a good game, but I would rather have a just good game finished then an awesome game that everyone gives up on because it's taking to damn long to finish.

I see, if anything is going to set us back, then I'm in agreement with IB and Reli. I'd rather we get this demo out the door and push to finish the project before it is abandoned.

Unfortunately, Badara is kind of MIA at the moment. While we do need to get things figured out for the demo, in the meantime we can still plan for the future.

[Reliability]

Hmm...Colossus? If we're having the Normal & Poison gyms give out parts of the Rivalry Orb, Colossus' big city feel would be a huge contrast to Laysan, a farming village. Maybe the Leader could be bitter about the fact that the city is causing so much pollution that Poison actually fits it?

That's the same as my rationale for Gallea, but I felt Gallea would be more Victorian-era industrialization (i.e. smoggy and loud) whereas Colossus would be more modern (and have "green" energy sources).
But since the object is to balance 6 gyms in Kirant and 6 in Caldera, having a gym in Colossus would mean moving one of the existing gyms out of Caldera.

Of course. But being able to explain in game why it's like that gives it a layer of depth.
...
I could help you with that, actually. Maybe not on the same level, because I've been so busy, but I'm really good at editing things that already exist.

Believe me, you're not the only one. Being busy is the plague of Topaz.

My statement still stands: we simply don't have time. This project has an expiry date, when people will stop checking and things stop moving forward and our endgame will still not have been achieved. I don't know, with the rate that things are getting done, if that will be in five years or two months. But we're approaching year 6 of this project and the demo still isn't really in grasp yet. Though comments and edits are helpful and everything, its creation that we really need right now, and our current member base is not large or diverse enough to provide that. I'm doing what I can, but at some point if things go stale enough, I won't have time to waste trying to pour life back into this thing. And with what I've already accomplished here, I DO NOT want it to get to that point.

So when you offer to edit things, it requires something to edit. There isn't anything to edit. And there may not be for a while. If things were going forward more quickly, I think we would all be more open to changing things, but as of right now, to keep me and many other people sane, we need to keep some level of conservatism.

True, but as threatening as the Eye of Sand is claimed to be, it's...too small as it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_of_Maine + =pretty badass desert

The only reason a few people have agreed is because it was the first thing suggested, and because it was suggested to put a lighthouse there. It could just as easily be put in Gallea if we removed Portwind, so for now the best option would be to keep our options open.

It could move, but the way that we have it is pretty well accepted. I'm still waiting for the four days I set aside for it to be up, so I guess we can continue to debate the issue.

IF (emphasis on the if) Dragon -> Soma, then Rock -> Sedcini, and Light -> Enechestra. THAT I think would be the most sensible solution IF we decided to scrap Portwind. BUT, if nobody is sold on Soma, then there really is no solution: we can't afford to lose another Kirant city and still have six gyms. BE THAT AS IT MAY, the set up that is accepted right now is better, IMO, than this one. Simply, we don't have any real reason to move the Eye of Sand. Would it not be easier (if this is really such an issue) to edit the map and make the damn thing bigger? This seems like a visual issue and not a logistical one.

And Soma Island is on one of those sea routes. If I remember correctly, going off the more recent version of the map (in a post here), Soma Island is on the northwestern tip of the southwesternmost dark blue water route. You'd be getting there via Gallea, not Enechestra...which is one of the reasons to put the Light gym in Gallea if we move the Eye of Sand.

I'm sorry, I was mistaken. I assumed that Soma would be ON the map. I thought it was the actual island in the southwest corner.

Unfortunately, Badara is kind of MIA at the moment. While we do need to get things figured out for the demo, in the meantime we can still plan for the future.

If there is no programmer, there is no future. I'm not fully convinced Badara IS coming back, which means we're a little dead in the water as of right now. But if we do find another one, or we get Badara back, I think we ought to have things done, right? If we aren't ready when a programmer does show up, he/she might leave before we get our act together.

[ImmunityBow]

Zenith, it's my job to see everything within the context of the whole picture. Not just the "what it could be" or the "what could be better", but also the "what we have" and "what can change". That's why I get to be favourable to some kinds of change and not so favourable to others, because, frankly, I do know more about Topaz than you do. Admittedly, this wasn't the case for a while when I first became the project leader, and of course I do forget things, but do realize that while I may seem to be against things for the sake of being against, it's because I am more able to understand the consequences of each change and how it affects what we already have. It doesn't mean I have a veto but I certainly have the right to disagree.

Also, if you want us to see your plan in its entirety, then you'll either have to post it in its entirety, or you can post whatever you will, and we will voice concerns that you will need to address. You can't just suggest something and then say that all our concerns are not valid because of a new piece of information you present that we would have had no way of knowing before. There was nothing in your post to suggest that the Eye of Sand would be blocked off (presumably by a Go-Go-Goggle style key item) until Skobeloff Town was finished.

As for the themes that would have to be changed. There is a pretty cool theme on the route connecting the Eye of Sand to the Mountainous Path on the way to Skobeloff Town concerning Iglonia and Torkoal and their Fire/Ice duality. I feel that the interplay of fire and ice has not really been explored very much by the rest of the Pokemon games so it was a interesting theme to include, and there was some agreement, though admittedly there wasn't that much opinion posted.

Also, understand that we do respect your opinion. Not just me, but a lot of people here. That's why you were made a VIP, because enough people respect your opinion that we believed you could use some more information to work with.

@Reliability: Colossus City was set up as an infringement on the harmonious nature of Caldera towns. It's supposed to be a polluting, debauch place with Drakodo and Grimer about, and the routes around it and I believe the NPC lines have been set up around this theme.

[SilentSentinel]

Yeah, I remember writing the lines for Collosus about it being the more industrialized and polluted city than Gallea.

[Reliability]

@Reliability: Colossus City was set up as an infringement on the harmonious nature of Caldera towns. It's supposed to be a polluting, debauch place with Drakodo and Grimer about, and the routes around it and I believe the NPC lines have been set up around this theme.

Yeah, I remember writing the lines for Collosus about it being the more industrialized and polluted city than Gallea.

Okay, I think I remember that now... Perhaps, then, the rationale for Gallea ought to be edited slightly. I'll think on it.
But Colossus still can't be used for the poison gym so, despite that, so my argument is still alright.

[Zenith]

I guess I should have been clearer about keeping the player from accessing the Eye of Sand until after clearing the 10th Gym. I was thinking it was kind of implied.

The problem with trying to split the gyms perfectly is the difference in number of towns...as of right now, Caldera has 11; Kirant has 9, and that's if you count Aquapolis.

And the Iglonia/Torkoal thing doesn't work very well even with the Eye of Sand. Deserts aren't always hot--the ones in the American southwest actually get pretty cool at night--their defining characteristic is being dry. Fire types wouldn't be too at home in almost all deserts.

@Rel: The Desert of Maine is only 40 acres...and was caused by haphazard farming over several generations. More importantly, Saharan city is supposed to be decent sized, even in modern terms, and veiled by the Eye of Sand. The desert itself would have to be large enough to accomplish that.

Actually, if the Eye of Sand was moved, we could add some kind of magma vent or something as a small (1-2 tiles & a cave) optional late game or postgame area. The Iglonia/Torkoal thing would work better with it.

[Reliability]

But 6 on each continent was the original idea that everyone agreed to. And it can be done, so we should DO it.

Actually, being dry would be beneficial to fire types. And if the desert wasn't hot already, they would provide the heat.

I was just proving that deserts have the capacity to be small, if that was your issue. We can make it visually bigger on the map if we want it to be more apparent that is "veils" Saharan. But I'm confused: would removing the Eye of Sand from the area altogether make Saharan a pretty illegitimate city. It's desert themed and to have only a magma vent certainly wouldn't justify it. So what do want? Are you still set on moving on it, or do you want it bigger? Because I feel like these are two separate arguments that don't assist each other at all.

[Cyndadile]

Deserts aren't always hot

True, but most people assume that they are. Pokemon has always been fairly stereotypical; I believe that can apply to locations.

[Zenith]

6 per continent may have been what we agreed on at first, but if we find a way that really works but happens to be 7-5, I don't see what the problem would be.

I wouldn't say the games are the most stereotypical...R/S/E, as you know, has a desert in Route 111. The encounters there are Sandshrew, Trapinch, Baltoy, and Cacnea...no Fire types, even though it's near an active volcano.

And Rel, I think you misunderstood me a little. Saharan would move with the Eye of Sand, and would go near where Portwind is now, but a little more inland.

Also, it has come to my attention that there are no real leveling opportunities between Froy and Therma. Any ideas to what we can do to prevent forced level grinding on Route 203?

[Irot_Rebod]

If it's possible, can we work in a mini story arc in here, similar to the Sprout Tower in Violet City or the Rocket Invasion at Slowpoke Well in G/S? If so, it could take care of the leveling issue, methinks.

[Reliability]

As much as its one league, these are two continents, with friction between them. It would be "unfair" for the league to make the two unbalanced. It would probably cause some sort of outcry on the part of the Kirant gyms.

There was nothing previously to suggest that you intended to move Saharan with the Eye of Sand.
But can you answer the question? If we were to, on the map, make the Eye of Sand more tiles, would that solve your issue and avoid having to move it?

I think that a mini-side quest might be a good option... we COULD introduce the Rockets or Orions at that point, since its as far in as the Rockets were introduced in GSC, and Galactic in DPP. Perhaps the rockets would actually BE the issue, and you can have a similar encounter with the Orion's after Therma. To facilitate for the demo, we could move the Orion encounter up into the demo, or simply have an appearance by them, but you wouldn't actually fight them.

[ImmunityBow]

Maybe something to do with the Softwind Orphanage? Or a basement with trainers in the library? (Which, by the way, is located in the passageway)

[Irot_Rebod]

All of these ideas sound good to me, though I think the introduction of Team Rocket and the Orion Defenders in the demo would be preferred.

[Tyrannigon64]

So, are there going to be contests like the ones Hoenn introduced?

[Reliability]

I don't think so. At this point, we haven't got any of the base work done, and I'm not sure if its a programming possibility in the first place. If circumstances change and we are making good headway and it is POSSIBLE, then perhaps.

But at this point, no there will be no contests.